Basketball Traveling Rules/Picking up your dribble
 

Hello, I am just curious on a few rules of traveling in basketball especially the concept of "picking up your dribble"

First is what exactly counts as "picking up your dribble"? I know you are allowed two steps after you pick up your dribble but what defines the moment when it happens?

Rajon Rondo Highlights vs.Los Angeles Lakers 3/11/2012 - 24 points - Red eye game - YouTube

I am a Rondo fan, but in this particular play he takes one or two steps as the basketball hangs behind him after he dribbles, and then picks it up and takes his two steps. Would this be legal in a high school or college game? Couldn't you if you had the ball control and the arm length (as Rondo does), after that last dribble take several steps to better position your body before picking up your dribble for two steps?


Second situation is when you take your last dribble/step at the same time before taking your two steps. This is usually how some people do spin moves or "windmill crossovers"

Mr. Fourth Quarter (Kyrie Irving) - YouTube

In this video, Kyrie performs this, although his step may be a bit late. However, say his step were at the same moment as his last dribble and he picks up his dribble after that and takes his two steps. This is a very powerful finishing move and I was wondering if this is legal in high school/college. (this seems legal to me).


Finally the NCAA rules on traveling say

Art. 2. A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:

3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.

I know this is to help break momentum when catching a pass, but I don't see it being legal when picking up your dribble, especially as a finishing move.

First of all, you are not allowed two steps after your dribble. It's not about steps, it's about when the pivot foot is established and what is done with that foot. Once the pivot is established, the other foot may do anything. The pivot foot can be picked up, but may not come back to the floor until after the ball has been released for a shot or pass.

The exception to this is the jump stop, which you note in the NCAA rule. You're right, it would be illegal based on the pivot foot rule, except for the rule which allows it.

As for when the dribble is picked up, just know that if the player isn't holding the ball in this play, he can't establish a pivot foot or travel. Once he is holding the ball, the first foot down is the pivot foot (except in the NBA).

Based on that, once a player has established his pivot foot, he gets to take one more step before lifting his pivot foot (normally the trailing foot on a layup).

Does this make sense?

Do you have a friend named Potato? :D

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...questions.html

Let's clear up a few things:

Steps aren't important when determining travelling under NFHS (high school) and NCAA rules. It's about establishing the pivot foot. Steps are only important under NBA rules. Also know that there are plays under NBA rules that are completely legal, but are not legal under NCAA/high school rules.

Also know that you can't travel unless you're holding the ball.

As for your last situation. I'm assuming you're trying to say that a player ends his dribble and gathers the ball while a foot is on the floor (we'll say the left foot)? If so, what can happen next depends on what rule set you're using:

NBA:

A player is allowed two steps after he has gathered the ball. The first step occurs after a player steps after he has ended his dribble. In this scenario:

1.) A1 may step with the right foot (step one), then step with the left foot (step two). In this case, the right foot would be the pivot foot.

2.) A1 may step with the right foot (step one), then jump off of that foot and land simultaneously with both feet (step two). A1 would not be able to pivot in this situation.

3.) A1 may jump off the left foot (the foot that was on the floor when the player ended his dribble) and land on both feet simultaneously (this is considered step one). Afterward, he may pivot with either foot.

Now let's take a look under NCAA and high school rules:

1.) A1 may step with his right foot. In this scenario, the left foot will be the pivot foot.

2.) A1 may jump off the left foot (the foot in which the player ended his dribble on, and land on both feet simultaneously. He may not pivot in this case.

I apologize for my poor choice of wording. I am sorry if this is completely off, but I hope to better understand this. (I read your responses and am still a bit confused)

according to NCAA rules

Art. 2. A player who catches the ball (I'm assuming this means pick up the dribble) while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows:

Let's say you take your last dribble and the ball hits the floor at the same moment as you take a step. (you are still dribbling the ball as you take that step). As the ball rises up, both your feet will be momentarily airborne and are off the playing court THEN you pick up/end your dribble while airborne.

a. When both feet are off the playing court and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either may be the pivot foot;

I'm assuming this is a jump stop. Left footstep same time as right hand dribble, you pick up your dribble as you are in the air and land on both feet. Now either foot can be the pivot.

2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch shall be the pivot foot;

I'm assuming this would be a spin move, or "windmill crossover" described. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and you step with your right foot (established pivot foot) then jump off your left foot and shoot.

3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.

Now apply the same situation as before with same last dribble/last step. Left foostep/right hand dribble, you pick up the dribble as both feet are momentarily airborne and land on one foot. Then you jump again and land on both feet. Would this be legal?

The official must determine if one foot is on the floor or if neither foot is on the floor. If neither foot is on the floor, then the move you describe is legal.

This is ALSO (along with your example 1) defined as a "jump stop" in NCAA rules. Many of the other terms you use are "fan speak" or "coach speak" and have no specific meaning withing the rules or to officials.

These are the rules that describe the two types of "jump stops." You can't use them with regards to other situations where stepping with the pivot foot results in traveling.

Others will not agree with this assessment.

How often does the above actually happen?

NOT VERY

But, err on the side of caution making this call. If you can imagine that this is what happened, play on.

woeigoweihg

How about for the sake of even more simplicity I just ask if either of the two moves performed in the videos of the original post are legal and would they both be somewhat considered jump stops?

Can I interpret that you are saying is:

NCAA:
The moment your hand comes in contact (with no further dribble) with the ball determines when the pivot foot has established, not when the player actually hold the ball (ball comes to rest on hand).

NBA:
The moment the ball comes to rest is the moment the dribble ends, so gathering doesn't count as dribbling ended. But in this case there is a loophole where players can take 3-4 steps or even more towards the basket without dribbling, i.e hand in contact with ball + gather for 2 steps then hold the ball and take another pivot/non-pivot step.


so under these scanario it would be a travel for NCAA and legal in NBA:

http://imageshack.us/a/img856/4067/pivotv.jpg

Honestly, I have no idea what you're saying there potato.:confused: When the ball is gathered means the dribble has ended or when a player has caught the ball...typically (but not always) when two hands are on the ball.

Regardless of rule set, determining the pivot foot begins when the dribble has ended/ball is caught (or gathered). Depending on if a foot is on floor, both feet on the floor, or both feet are in the air when the ball is caught/gathered/dribble has ended will determine what the player will next be able to do.

It's the same thing he's posted twice before.

Of course, that might not help, because I really didn't understand it then, either. I think he's looking for a black and white answer to a judgment area.

You keep asking when the dribble ended and we keep telling you it's a judgment call by the official. When are you going to understand that?

No, this is not what he's saying. Not at all. The pivot foot cannot be established until a player is holding the ball. This can happen with one or both hands (or a combination such as a hand and a hip, for example), but merely having a hand touch the ball does not constitute holding the ball. How do we define "holding" verses just "touching" the ball?

As bob says, sometimes you just have to officiate.

Meaning in NBA you don't establish pivot foot when you pick up the ball but only the step taken after you pick up the ball you establish a pivot?

While in NCAA you establish pivot foot when you hold the ball?

Still isn't it possible to be running 3, 4 or even 5 steps straight towards the basket (with hands on the ball) after a dribble without bouncing the ball again? For example A is dribbling, after the ball bounces he touches the ball with his hand (but not gathered) and runs 2 steps, then gathers & establish pivot on his 3rd step and take another 4th step with his non pivot foot so 4 steps straight to basket? Because officials determine the dribble ended only when the player gathers the ball and allow another pivot/non pivot foot steps. However in games players usually get called for traveling because simply "he took too many steps" while it's legal under the rules.

I would like to see a video where such scenario happen but it's hard to search a good example.

Something has to be getting lost in translation here....it's not really as hard as you're making it out to be.

It does not matter what the rule set it. A pivot foot can not be established unless you're holding the ball. Depending on when you end the dribble/gather the ball and the subsequent actions afterward will determine which foot is the pivot foot or if the player even has a pivot foot. But fundamentally, you can not establish a pivot foot until you're holding the ball.

As to your scenario, if a player isn't holding the ball, or the ball doesn't come to rest in the player's hand (aka the player doesn't palm the ball), then the player can take as many steps has he wants.

And no, a player is called for travelling for moving their pivot foot in excess of certain limits...not because he took too many steps (unless you're working in the NBA and even with that, that's still moving the pivot foot in excess of what is allowed). It's not as you describe because theoretically, a player could take as many steps as they want as long as they aren't' holding the ball or commit a dribbling violation.

So it is allowed for a player to dribble just once, after the ball bounces, have his hand in contact with the ball for control, but not gathering/palming/holding, run as many steps as fast as he can, then Without re-bouncing the ball on the floor again for another dribble, straight away gather/hold the ball to establish a pivot foot and take another step on his non pivot foot and take off yes?

So if the player is fast enough he can do jab steps left right left right to confuse the defender with his hand in control of the ball to throw off the defender and immediately holds the ball for another 1-2 step without even doing another dribble. Wish there's a video showing this scenario to make it easier to understand. But in short the player can just run 5-6 steps straight to the basket from far out the 3point line without having to dribble after his 1st bounce from way outside the 3 point line. Something like American Football but with one hand and not grabbing the ball.

If a player is not holding the ball, and doesn't commit any dribbling violations in the process, he can take as many steps as he wants.

and straight away hold the ball to do a pivot/non-pivot step without another dribble? so technically a 5-6 steps to the basket without a dribble is allowed.

If he takes that many steps with his hand on the ball, the odds are good that I'm going to think he was holding the ball with one hand, but yes, it's possible in theory.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here, but it doesn't matter. My original statement still stands... if a player isn't holding the ball, and doesn't commit any dribbling violations, then a player could in theory take as many steps as he wanted.

You can't travel while dribbling the ball.

If you lift your pivot foot before release the dribble, you have traveled.

If you end your dribble, pick your pivot foot up and put it back down while still holding the ball, you have traveled.

And I'm with the others...I have no idea why you're having such trouble comprehending this.

Does This Help ???
 

While dribbling, a player can slam the ball down onto the court with such force such that it bounces twenty-five feet into the air, and then take fifteen steps while the ball is in the air, and not be called for traveling. He can still continue to dribble once the ball comes back down and not be called for an illegal dribble.

Let's get some input from the Mythbusters:

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

The traveling rule is one of the most misunderstood rules in basketball. To start a dribble, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. On a pass or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or request a timeout. If the player is flat on his or her back, that player may sit up without violating.

A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball. During a fumble the player is not in control of the ball, and therefore, cannot be called for a traveling violation. A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball is unintentionally dropped or slips from a player’s grasp. After a player has ended a dribble and fumbled the ball, that player may recover the ball without violating. Any steps taken during the recovery of a fumble are not traveling, regardless of how far the ball goes and the amount of advantage that is gained. It is always legal to recover a fumble, even at the end of a dribble, however that player cannot begin a new dribble, which would be an illegal dribble violation. A player who fumbles the ball when receiving a pass may legally start a dribble.

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the referee considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point. When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. If, in this situation, the defender simply touches the ball, and the airborne shooter returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

Palming or carrying is when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

Stop with the "steps" thinking. It's not part of the rule.

A player is either holding the ball or dribbling the ball. If he's dribbling, then there are no restrictions on the movement of the feet. if he's holding the ball, then the pivot foot movement is restricted.

Deciding when a player goes from dribbling to holding is judgment, and the judgment is not based on the number of steps.

It's not about how high, but i'm referring to the fact that the player's hand is in contact with the ball while running so he has total control over the ball, Adam got the idea what i'm trying to say, but Adam it's very possible to take 4-5 very quick steps jab steps left right left right (for a normal person within 2 seconds) while ball is on hand without palming, and still able to grab hold of the ball and do a pivot non-pivot run.

i couldn't find a video that any players actually did this, the closest was the Michael Jordan travel but he got called for palming before he had the chance to show it's legal to continue with a pivot non-pivot run all the while with the ball on his hand.

I'm sure if someone did this infront of officials chances are they going to call it a travel because it'd look so extremely awkward and since it seems nobody's though about this move or done it before. It would look like someone running all the way from 3/4 court to under the basket with his hand on the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_LktMbXNPQ

An easy way to picture it is something like this move by MJ, but let's assume: "MJ wasn't palming and he didn't do the last bounce on the ball before the layup" and instead held the ball to end the so called dribble and took a pivot/non-pivot run to finish the play, all the while his hand on the ball.

The hand is in contact with the ball for an extended period of time. He has "total control" of the ball. This, for me, pretty much defines the ball coming to rest, ending the dribble.

I think not.

I have small hands so i cannot palm the ball with 1 hand, i can dribble light and have the ball stay on my hand for 2 seconds, all it takes is a little bit of lateral movement, and soft hands to make it "stick" with the ball, you can keep it longer on the hand if you run faster to create more lateral force on the ball and it won't be palming or carry (however officials will have their own view).

Or will you just call it palming because it looks out of conventional plays and totally unfair?

I know american footballers like to run left/right/left/right before going for the breakthrough run, basketball would look something like that with this move.

1.ball in contact with hand for extended period of time: about 1-2 seconds, ,you can easily see many dribblers hand in contact with the ball for 3-4 steps when they dribble from back to frontcourt, but they usually continue to dribble so it doesn't look awkward. I shouldn't have used "Total control", but since the ball is in contact with the hand he has quite abit of control.

2.get off your chair and do a quick left right left right baby steps with your feet, it's very possible for normal person. i don't mean full length steps that covers maximum range, but baby steps to make it like you are going left/right.

The dictionary definition of "come to rest" is to "slow down and stop."


If the ball is in your hand for two seconds, it has stopped there. period

So it doesn't matter if the ball is still spinning on your hand due to the bounce from the dribble?

I see many point guards esp the tall ones like to do on the moon slow-mo runs when they bring the ball from the back court to the front, they usually run 3-4 steps with the hand in contact with the ball, because they bounce high & soft so their hand can stay in contact with the ball longer. But nobody gets called for travel due to this.

I guess it will end up with judgment call. And since you believe no player has the ability to move their feet so quick you are going to judge the ball came to rest on the hand.

I'm guessing traveling is one of those more difficult to make type of judgment calls.

They should just modify the rules & explicitly state something like the dribble has considered to have ended the moment the hand comes in contact with the ball while no further dribble occurs, this will make calls much easier & clear cut.

Stop Right There, I Gotta Know Right Now, Before We Go Any Further (Meatloaf) ...
 

Stop right there. "Hold"? The dribble has now ended and the player is limited in regard to what he can, or can't, do with his pivot foot, according to the traveling rules.

Throw Out The Baby WithThe Bathwater ...
 

While palming, or carrying, is a legitimate violation in basketball, in reality it's actually either a travel violation, or an illegal (double) dribble violation, depending on whether, or not, the pivot foot is moving at the time. Officials don't really need the palming, or carrying, rule. Deleting palming, or carrying, from the rulebook would have absolutely no effect on the game of basketball because the officials would call either traveling, or illegal (double) dribble, when such a violation occurred. In fact, you can probably throw away the phrase double dribble, because it's actually an illegal dribble violation.

Well, Technically, An Eight Minute Time Limit, But ...
 

Stop right there. You have already been advised to stay away from counting steps in regard to traveling (always listen to bob), and, rather, stick to identifying, and knowing the limitations on a player's pivot foot, Now I'm going to advise you to completely disregard any time limits in regard to the traveling rule.

If He Lifts That Pivot Foot, He Can Only Shoot, Or Pass ...
 

The ball is "on" his hand? Sounds to me like he's holding the ball with that one hand. Yes it's legal for him to continue doing something, but he's limited to what he can do because he has now ended his dribble and has only a few legal options, one of them not being to continue his dribble, because that would be illegal, i.e., traveling, or travelling for our British friends.

Sammy, Give Me A Little Traveling Music (Jackie Gleason) ...
 

Hand on the ball? At some point, early on in this move, he's going to travel as he moves his pivot foot while holding the ball.

Words Get In The Way (Gloria Estefan) ...
 

"Stay on my hand"? That's holding the ball, dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"Lateral movement"? Once that hand gets to the point where it's perpendicular to the floor, officials will start their decision making process in regard to whether, or not, you are holding the ball. Most will probably decide that you are holding the ball, the dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"Stick"? That's holding the ball, dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"On the hand"? That's holding the ball, dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

"It won't be palming or carry"? Yes it will be. Call it what you like, palming, carry, or travel, but it's illegal. See post #32 above.

Stop Counting Steps ...
 

"3-4 steps"? Stop counting steps. Counting steps has nothing to do with traveling, it's all about identifying a pivot foot and knowing the limitations on the player's pivot foot once that player holds the ball (always listen to bob).

"Hand can stay in contact with the ball". "Stay"? If the hand is staying in contact with the ball, then the player is probably holding the ball, the dribble has ended, now you have limitations in regard to what you can, and cannot, legally do.

Traveling is the toughest call for me to make in a game. Not block/charge. Not rebounding fouls. Not fouls committed against players in the act of shooting. Not intentional fouls. Thirty-two years working games, a ton of experience, and I still have one, or two, tough traveling calls every week during the season.

I used 3-4 steps before he held the ball and used the term pivot non pivot run after he grabbed the ball, i guess i should have used 3-4 alternative foot steps instead because i already tried my best to explain "left/right/left/right step", i have used the pivot non pivot foot run to describe the movement after the player held the ball. I can't be using pivot non pivot foot to illustrate the feet movement before the ball rested on the hand.

I mentioned ball on hand doesn't mean he's holding the ball from the bottom because i mentioned the player is not palming/holding/grabbing the ball, but merely ball is in contact with the hand and i'm not sure why a normal player is not capable of having the ball in contact with the hand for 2 seconds during a normal bounce without needing to palm/hold the ball and i'm not sure why a normal person is not able to move his left foot -> right foot -> left foot -> right foot quick enough to complete the movement within 1-2 seconds, i'm sure even a huge guy can tip toe fast enough.

Bounces ball on floor once -> Hand comes in contact with ball in legal dribbling position guiding the bouncing ball from waist up to shoulder or higher WHILE: "moving his left foot -> moving his right foot -> moving his left foot" -> grabs the ball with both hands to end his dribble & establish a pivot right foot -> moves his left non pivot foot and jumps off that non pivot foot.

above is my best effort in narrating the scenario without using the word step(s).


you guys are like lawyers working on each and every single word and different people having different interpretations on the sentences i'm guessing the only clear cut way to ask a question is probably coming up with a video which i failed to google one.

Well it matters what the language says in this very specific area for one. You cannot talk about steps when steps is no where in the rule or explanation of what is a violation or allowed by a player. The rule is rather simple for the most part but people like you make it more complicated by taking myths and trying to apply to what is legal or not. Even if you had video there is going to be some dispute on some plays as to when a player has established a pivot foot by stopping their dribble or when they catch the ball. Just do some research and you will see many of us debating this on a video.

The problem is you could understand by just reading the actual rule, instead of trying to find some vast paper to understand the rule. Actually it seems like you are confusing yourself more than anything.

Peace

That's all you need to know / determine. If the dribble hasn't ended until this point, then nothing (relevant to this play) that happened before matters.

The best thing for you to do is actually put a whistle in your mouth and start officiating some basketball. Then you will see all these hypotheticals are meaningless to us. You will learn about something called "judgment".

But you are perfect foil for BillyMac. He will definitely keep your threads going.

If the official judges that the player is holding the ball it is a travel or illegal dribble. If the official judges that the player is not holding the ball it is not a travel.

Why is that so difficult for you to accept?

Step On It ...
 

Listen to bob, and to JRutledge. It's not about counting steps. It's never about counting steps. Never has been about counting steps. Never will be about counting steps. It's about the pivot foot, and only about the pivot foot. Period. Stop talking about counting steps.

To put it another way, in regard to traveling, never use the word, "step(s)", as a noun, i.e., "The player takes two steps", rather, only use the word, "step(s)", as a verb, i.e., "The player's right foot is his pivot foot, and he steps with his left foot".

We'll Be Taking Depositions Early Next Week ...
 

BadNewsRef, Esquire, is correct. No way will I let potato make a common, ordinary, garden variety, travel violation call be more difficult than it actually is. I normally like a challenge, but this isn't really that challenging, it just takes some patience, and perseverance. Hey. I dealt with 125 middle school students every day for over thirty years. They would try to grind me down every single day, so I was just as stubborn as they were. This is a piece of cake. Stand back and watch me do do that voodoo that I do so well. I'm what you call an expert at stuff like this.

The Rain In Spain Stays Mainly In The Plain, By George, She's Got It ...
 

Like a ray of sunshine coming through the clouds, potato is 100% correct. There is no pivot foot before the player holds the ball.

potato: Please note two keys on your keyboard, one on the lower right, and one on the lower left, both with the word, "Shift", with an arrow pointing up. Hold either of them down as you press other letter keys, and see what happens. It's amazing.

Pivot Foot ...
 

Grabbed? That's holding the ball. Identify a pivot foot and realize that there on now restrictions on moving that pivot foot.

Cha-Cha-Cha ...
 

If this takes place before the player holds the ball, then it has absolutely no bearing on a travel, or a no travel, call. If this takes place after the player holds the ball, then easy peasey lemon squeezy, it's a traveling violation.

Keep It Simple ...
 

Here are the simple parts: Once a player stops dribbling and holds the ball, he establishes a pivot foot. On a pass, or a shot, the pivot foot may be lifted, but may not return to the floor before the ball is released. Any other foot movement other than these two situations represent a traveling violation. That's "Traveling 101".

There is a complicated part to the rule: Jump stops to set the pivot foot. Players sometimes jump off of two feet, sometimes off of one foot, sometimes land on two feet, sometimes land on one foot, and jump off that foot to the other foot. Sometimes players can use either foot as the pivot foot, sometimes players can use neither foot as a pivot foot. That "Traveling 401", a graduate level course.

Note that I don't go into jump stops in my Mythbusters list. I did it on purpose, the list is designed to educate players ,coaches, and fans, not officials, with the possible exception of spanking brand new rookie officials.

More circles.