Block-Charges (video)
 

It seems as though the gallery is in need of plays to discuss, so...

From the NCAAW D3 National Semi #1. A few FYIs...take them for what they're worth.

*The same official made both calls
*They were about 2½ minutes apart but the second play was the first block/charge situation after the first

Play #1
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Play #2
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I have two charges at least using NF or NCAAW rules.

Both very close, but I think the defenders got there in time. And any slight movement was not enough for me to not call a charge.

Peace

So, T makes the call on Video 1, involving a secondary defender, and L is motionless . . .?
Then, L makes the call on Video 2, involving a secondary defender, and T is motionless . . .?

Which is according to guidelines, at that level?

Would a dbl whistle be appropriate in either?

I cannot speak directly for what is expected in NCAA Women's basketball as it relates to these plays. But I do feel there is nothing wrong with a double whistle and nothing wrong with one official in each situation taking this call. It is possible the L was surprised by the play and did not call anything in the first play and waited for the T to take the call. But a double whistle on both would be appropriate in most situations.

Peace

First play: block. The defender was never in the path prior to the shooter going airborne. The shooter was coming directly at the camera and you could see her entire torso, unobstructed, until after she was airborne. Only after going airborne did the defender get in the path. Plus, the trail needs to let the lead have that one.

Second play: Charge. Contact even occurred before the shooter was airborne so it was only a matter of getting in the path with both feet down before contact. The defender got in the path got the 2nd foot down just before contact. That was the correct official to make the call and it was incredibly close so I can't fault anyone for having a different opinion on this one.

Play 1: I want to no-call this, but I'm not sure I could justify it to my superior. Block.

Play 2: First angle made me think block, second angle made me think charge. Go figure.

Under NCAAW Play #1 happened in reverse. The play starts in the L's primary - barely - but the pressure at the FT line extended means the T should keep it. It also means the L is supposed to pick up secondary defenders to deal with any RA plays. I think Jeff is right in that the L was surprised. Look at his head/eyes. When the drive begins, he's watching #11 White beat her defender. As she approaches the lane it doesn't appear as though he ever looks in front of her to pick up secondary defenders. Then as the shot goes up, he looks up at the ball. The T pretty much saved them by putting a whistle on the play even though it was really late.

On play #2 you could have a double whistle but NCAAW tends to frown on those so it's L first crack at it, T second.


He did but the L didn't do anything and someone had to do something since that wasn't a no-call. That's why the whistle was so late. And no, the time lag wasn't an issue with the clip. That's how long it took for the T to blow.

Jeff -

Just curious: what would you have under NCAAM?

I probably would call the same I stated. But with them changing the language, I need more clarification to feel differently about these plays.

Peace

So, when there is a dbl whistle on such plays, how do you sort it out? In your pre-game conference w/partners, what do you do to define your crew's method of determining who takes the call?

Under the new NCAA-M guidelines, both of these plays would be blocks.

Under last years guidelines, I have charge on both.

I have a charge on #1 & block on #2.

Under the code this game was played, primary takes precedence. I can't speak for NCAAM.

I don't consider it saving the crew by getting the call wrong. I don't think an official should jump in unless they have the view to get it right. He didn't.

Cam -

I don't know if JMF used the right word in "SAVED", but I do agree that that play needed a whistle. If someone comes a second late on an obvious crash ( that we all agree is close ), I rather have a whistle, than a crash with nothing. IMO the trail has stones....I like that.

It's saving the crew because something had to be called and I can't say one way or another whether he missed it. Neither can the population at-large, apparently, since there are differing opinions in the thread.

As for having a good look at it, on the end zone replay it shows the T stepped down below the 28-foot line before making the call. He didn't jump in. He followed the play, waited then reacted. If you want to take someone to task, I think it would be the L.

All officials do not see the same things or the entire play, so you can pre-game all you like but that is not going to stop an official that sees a foul to judge this as a foul and call it. Both of these plays IMO can have either official make these calls if they see something. If you have a double whistle, then it usually goes to the primary. Or in some cases if the person saw the beginning of the play is likely going to watch the entire play and make the right call. This is an ebb and flow situation where you have to adjust to each play.

Peace

I really don't see how, using the replay, anyone can come to any conclusion other than a block. There is one angle gives such a good view that it no longer involves judgement. From the replay showing the shooter coming straight at the camera, it is very clear that there was nothing in her path at the time she went airborne. Once you see that, it is merely a matter of rule. It can only be a block if the shooter is airborne before anyone is in their path.

At live speed from the positions of the officials or from several camera angles, it can look like a charge and I can how they might think it was a charge but that doesn't make it the right call when there is one angle which clearly shows it is not.

I was at a camp in April where several D1 clinicians emphasized to me NEVER to call in someone else's area (obviously not including secondary areas) unless it was a game-saving call. Of course, this means you have to trust your partners to take care of their areas. According to their logic, this is not a game-saving call and thus should not be touched by the T.

Arem -

I don't disagree, however when you have a crash / wreck / multiple bodies on the floor are you passing because you are working with Karl Hess and zTony Greene????

If they have a brain cramp and you come get that and you are right, regardless of time and score, two things are gonna happen. They will appreciate it and you will gain the trust of John Clougherty or John Cahill.....

Just my opinion....

Arem -

I'm curious....what part of the country was this camp and was it men's or women's....

I have had D1 clinicians make it very clear that if we pass on plays like that, bad things could happen. I know I was at a camp in Texas and there was a play that I had the worst angle to call something and we all got admonished for not making a call that looked really bad and all of us passed on. And these are not plays that should be passed on. Something should be called with this much contact and players basically on the floor. Not all obvious fouls are game saving in nature.

Peace

Rut -

Was this one of Curtis Shaw's camps ?????

Midwest, men's camp.

I totally get what you mean. I would make this call as the T if my partner has a brain fart. I agree that calls like this should not be passed on, and hopefully my partner would be thankful.

However, a women's camp I went to (D1 officials, midwest) also told me the same thing. "If your partner passed on something in his area, he must have had a reason. Do not call outside your area unless it is a game saving call." For example, this no-call that the T could have saved.

The main thing would be the type of play your partner passed on. If there's an iffy play in his/her area, they let it go and then you come in and take it...that falls into the area of "trust your partner." As Jeff said, this is a case of bodies hitting the floor and it wasn't just incidental contact. Someone had to do something. It may/may not have been the right call but no whistle on that play is much worse. I have a feeling the officials you spoke with at the D1 women's camp would say the same thing.

On a side note...I worked with the L on play #1 at a camp in July. It took me a few times watching the video to realize it.

Nope. I have never been to any of Shaw's camps.

Peace

Yep, totally agree on this. However I am stuck trying to figure out why those guys didn't say this. I was surprised at how vehemently they told me never to call outside my areas.

Because it was camp.

play 1: here's a common case where a "play on" could be justified, but the fact that bodies were splayed across the floor would compel a "charge" to be called given that the defender was in LGP--at least from the T's position--though I wondered why the L did not make the call?

Play 2: I agree with the "block" call.

thanks for posting this fine vid.

Play 1. Block. Defense isn't in position prior to shooter leaving the floor.

Play 2. Charge. From the first angle it looks like a block. However from baseline, it seems the defense got to the spot first.

One question: How?

Since I said the same thing, I will defend. I saw the contact as marginal. From first glance the contact did not seem to be as much as the girls ending up on the ground made it seem. I feel once contact occurred, both players fell to the ground trying to sell the call in their favor. If this were a men's game I doubt either player would have fallen down from such contact.

As I said, I initially wanted to no-call this, but decided on block after a couple viewings. I do not see the B1 having LGP before A1 leaves the floor. B1 appears to be sliding to her right and moving slightly forward while A1 is airborne.

Why would this matter? Would officials of that caliber not want to teach me the right way to do it?

JetMetFan, would it be fair to say "don't call the iffy stuff outside your area, only make those calls which your partner will later thank you for getting"?

Because what is taught in camp is sometimes not practiced to that extent in real life or the games these officials actually work.

Go to enough camps and watch enough clinicians, you will see this is the case in many situations.

Peace

I've got a tough time with this reasoning, especially since the shooter was airborne. If you're airborne and hit an object that may/may not have been there when you left the ground, you'll most likely fall down. If the shooter lands then makes contact with the defender or if the defender was moving backwards at the time of contact, that's another story. Either way, contact doesn't have to be severe to warrant a foul call.



I think the fair thing to say would be give your partner a chance but ultimately make calls that need to be made. That's one thing I took from the camps I attended this summer. For me, play #1 falls into the category of a call that needed to be made.

Do as I say but not as I do? What are they trying to teach me?

This seems ambiguous, can you define it please?

Out of curiosity, how long have you been officiating and at what level(s)?

In camp they want to see that you know how to call your primary and that you recognize what is not your primary. They are not real games, they are teaching tools.

When she first started posting she was a shy flower who was intimidated by male coaches. Now all of a sudden she has the wisdom and courage of Teddy V. and Eric Brewton :rolleyes:

It's tough but I think Jeff put it best in post #22 of the thread:

if we pass on plays like that, bad things could happen

Basically, call the "elephants" in the room. The ones you need to get to preserve order or to keep coaches and/or players from losing control.

We're not all in agreement as to what should have been called on play #1 but if there's nothing called what will we hear? "How the xxxx can three of you miss something like that!!!" Given it happened in the first half - of a game that went to OT, btw - you're going to hear it all night AND from both benches...and you would've brought it on yourselves as a crew. You would also have heard a whole lot of complaining one way or another on play #2 if there's a no call on play #1 and rightfully so because they happened within a few minutes of one another.

There's no way the offensive player embellished because she was contacted while airborne. If you think the defender flopped to try to embellish the call, fine. Call her for a block and that problem is solved. If you think she was legal, call the PC since no player likes taking a knee to the chest. A no call opens up a huge can of worms.

Out of curiosity, how many officiating clinics have you had the primary responsibility of organizing and providing leadership upon? (edit) how many commendations have you been awarded for excellence in officiating?

None and none. Answering a question with a question: The sign of someone who is avoiding the initial question. Not shocking. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't believe your answer anyway. Makes no difference.

Would you mind answering why you would, in a million years, no call that first play, your excellence?

Seems to me that Smitty's question is genuine and relevant given the divergence of your opinion from the majority. Responding with non sequitur questions doesn't help, but feel free to answer your own question to Smitty if you think it will bolster your credibility or otherwise add to the discussion of the posted videos.

As I posted earlier:

Either a troll or someone with multiple personalities.

I will not speak for anyone else, but I have been responsible for many type clinics or was the person in charge of a session or presentation. And all I have ever noticed about previous playing experience is it helps an official with strategy and understanding what is going on from a team aspect, but not necessarily their rules or mechanics knowledge.

Peace

*lol @ shy flower---and this forum has Liberated me! Empowered me!

If that's what you were going for, then good for you. If you were trying to gain any credibility or respect, then not so good. Avoiding direct questions is a sure sign that you are probably a troll.

Politically Correct..........
 

When she first started posting she was a shy flower who was intimidated by male coaches. Now all of a sudden she has the wisdom and courage of Teddy V. and Eric Brewton :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Teddy V. and Eric Brewton....got both the men's and women's game covered....thought you would say Bernie Clinton and Dwayne Gladden so you could suck up for more games !!!!!:D:D:D:D:D

Teddy V. and Eric Brewton....got both the men's and women's game covered....thought you would say Bernie Clinton and Dwayne Gladden so you could suck up for more games ... :D:D:D:D:D[/QUOTE]

Sucking up doesn't get you college games. Around here it will get you a decent HS schedule though.

JetMetFan, I got in touch with a guy from the camp and asked him to clarify what the clinicians meant. He said that plays like this do need to be called, and that you shouldn't call small, regular stuff outside your area. As a crew you need to take care of these types of collisions for all the reasons you and JRut mentioned. I only wish they had told me this at the time.

At least he clarified it for you. I figured that was the case since I've heard it from every D1 official I've ever run into in a camp situation.

Misdemeanor vs. Felony
 

These plays were best explained to me like this......

If a guy drives his car 56 mph and the speed limit is 55, if my partner doesn't write him a ticket, why am I getting involved..... Misdemeanor

However - if he commits armed robbery and robs a bank, I am going to arrest him regardless what my partner thinks..... Felony

I beleive video one is a felony........

But are you going to arrest what may be the victim if you have a poor view of the crime just so you can arrest someone?

The T in this play had no chance to see through all of the bodies between him and the play. There were at least 3-4 directly in his line of sight to the play. The C probably had a much more open look, even if it was way out of their primary.

Hey, that is 100% on the money!

Get the elephants, not the ants. Everyone can see the elephants.

Peace

The Pink Elephant In The Room ???
 

Good metaphor. Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we refer to such plays as ants, and elephants, same as in JRutledge's Chicagoland (his little northeast corner if Illinois).

:rolleyes:

Billy, my comment or reference did not just come directly from where I live. I have been to camps in other states and heard the same language or reference. BTW, Chicago and the suburbs, the population is larger then your entire state. We do not have one voice or standard as you would like to suggest. We have people with all kinds of experiences and work all kinds of levels. Things are a lot broader then a little corner.

Peace

All Politics Is Local (Thomas Phillip " Tip" O'Neill, Jr.) ...
 

Yeah, go ahead just keep rubbing it in. And I bet that you guys don't use button hooks anymore to tie your shoes before a game.

In this case? Yes, unfortunately. After the game the crew can figure out why the play was FUBAR. During the game, someone has to do something for the reasons Jeff and I mentioned before. On a play like that it's going to be next to impossible to tell a coach, your observer or your supervisor that no one saw it or that is was incidental. Granted you don't want to screw it up but a no-call looks much worse.

You know what, I just watched this video again. I think what got this all started bad was that the lead was not refereeing the defense and was left not knowing how the defender got there. He seemed to be tracking the dribbler in, even after the dribbler beat the initial defender. No need to be watching the dribbler. That is what set up this mess.

I just don't like guesses that penalize the wrong player...which is what the trail did. I don't think he had any look at the play at all and came up with a whistle and made up a call simply because he saw two bodies go down. I think there should have been call but I just think that guessing (and getting it wrong) is worse....even worse than a blarge.

For a little defense of the L, he does have responsibility for the drive in NCAAW floor coverage. That said, I do agree with you that he had no idea that secondary defender was there because he turned his head rather than moving wider.

And the C actually has an amazing look at that first play as the waters parted right in front of her. Maybe if she had gotten the whistle they would have gotten that call correct?

Great Posts!!!!!!
 

Cam and RR -

I think both of your last posts bring up great points, however Cam we are just going to have to disagree.... If you are lead in a game where I am the T, I will have a whistle on that play if you don't every time. If the roles are reversed, then it will have to be a play on, unless you are comfortable with your look and then I can only hope you will come save the crew......

One of my closest friends is an observer for the NBA ( BNR no wise cracks neccessary:D:D:D ) and he says with a secondary defender both C & T should get looks so they can have a whistle on this play.

Cam maybe this will be play of the year on the Reftown site ......:D:D:D

I do think there needed to be a whistle. However, I'd like to know what the C thought of it....or if the L was just slow to the whistle and the trail jumped him. I've have a few partners to do that to me every year. I think the T was the wrong one to come in and get this. He had the worst view of them all.

He was not the ideal official for sure, but it needed to be called. And if that is rare I am OK with the call.

Peace

Whistle Cadence
 

Cam -

Yes we all have those plays where we are thinking WTH, because the whistle is coming from the wrong person, however I thought in this play his cadence was, "primary nothing, Holy Shoot we need a whistle" and then he blew.

I can accept that cadence from my trail......

And just anothet point regarding the C, how mant times have you seen an easy play, the you assume the primary will get and then they don't. And by the time you want to react it is too late......maybe that is what happened to C...just a thought

At the college level there are, in my experiences, far fewer crashes than at the HS level. It is an expectation to have a whistle, in my experiences, on crashes at the college level. The times we don't plenty of times I've heard from a HC, "you gotta call something on that play".

I think coaches at the college don't like seeing players on the floor as evidenced by institution of the RA. I don't think they want games with a bunch of "play-ons".

Agreed. I think she just didn't stay engaged with the play - was probably thinking "Oh wow...hope Bob (or whatever L's name is) gets that one."