NCAA proposed rule change...Separate yet separate
 

Create separate rules book for men and women.

To separate the printing of the NCAA Men’s and Women’s Basketball Rules Books, with the following mandates:
1. That both committees meet jointly and collaborate on an annual basis;
2. That both committees will collaborate on the development of rules language where rules are identical;
3. That rules changes that impact common issues (e.g., facility issues, court markings, etc.) be discussed and every effort is made to have common rules in these areas;
4. That both secretary-rules editors will collaborate on rules book preparation and interpretations.

Rationale: Ease of understanding rules that only apply to the users.

We were told today (Tuesday) it was the men pushing for this change.

How hard is it to skip the rules that don't apply to one gender or the other?

I'd like to see them make the rules "more common" and splitting the books will lead to greater differences despite the four "mandates"

I think it would be a good change. Women's basketball tries to be so different I am really tired of having to figure out what they do differently so it does not spill into the Men's game. Separate would be best as the Women's side is so bent on being different then what usually happens at other level. Since the Women's side wants to be different, let them produce their own book just like it is with mechanics.

Peace

Right, we're so different. Which is why NCAAM is the only rule set that doesn't have an airborne shooter rule on offensive fouls. Or why NCAAM has Class A and Class B technical fouls while the rest of the world...doesn't.

As I pointed out, it's the men's rules committee that pushed for this one.

There is an airborne shooter rule, it just does not apply to a PC foul. But that is so rare it never happens. I think once in my 8 or 9 college year career have I ever had to even rule on such a play. Also Class A and Class B Technicals are really about terminology, the rule is basically the same when it comes to other levels for the most part.

Not having a 10 second rule violation and no closely guarded unless a ball handler is holding the ball is IMO very different and likely to happen more often. And then when they consider the 10 second rule they completely have to be different to start the count.

And I understand why they pushed for this separation, that is why I agree with that proposal.

Peace

Separate But Equal ???
 

Stupid monkeys.

Thanks for posting this stuff, JMF. Keep the info coming - you seem to have an "in" when it comes to getting this info.

As for the NCAAW "having to be different", just consider the source and ignore the comments. Most people understand that a lot of the changes the NCAAW side make come down from NBA/WNBA studies and changes.

No worries on my end. Some folks don't like the NCAAW game and that's all good. As you pointed out, when it comes to mechanics we're actually the ones who move to follow the pros a bit sooner (see "officials going tableside after calling a foul"). The only thing we were slow on was the ten-second count and I don't know how much of a difference it's going to make. Realistically, how many ten-second violations are called in NCAAM? Getting two in the same NCAA tourney game this season may have been the first two I've seen in years.

Regarding when we start the shot-clock period following a throw-in (when the ball is touched as opposed to when the offense controls it), that would be the NBA rule as well...

I had 2 this season on back-to-back possessions by one team, and this was a college game.

I have had 3 or 4 in a season in college games. Some teams put full court pressure can cause this violation like other violations. And with these kinds of situations I do not see why it is a big deal to have separate rules. They have separate committees, why is it a big deal to have separate rulebooks? There are separate CCA Manuals.

Good for the NBA. College players are not NBA players. Just like college players should not play under many NFL rules as well. Then again that is a personal opinion.

Peace

Umm...the shot clock starts the same in NCAA and NBA...as soon as the ball is legally touched from a throw-in. I believe y'all are talking about when a backcourt count begins.

I am, but this just goes to show why there needs to be separate rulebooks. ;)

Peace

No, this just goes to show why the different levels need to unify on rules that really have no good reason to be different. :D

I disagree and that is not going to happen either. That is not the case in any sport when you separate youth, to college, to the pros. And certainly not going to happen when each has a different committee.

Peace

It may not happen due to all of the personalities involved but there really is no good reason for them to be different. They are really only different because neither side wants to compromise with the other over difference that don't matter.

At every single level, they could be made the same aside from the timing differences (different length game, shot clock, etc.), ball size, rim height, and maybe some court dimensions. None of those elements are playing rules. All of the playing rules should be 100% the same from pros to kids.

And there are other sports where it is done. It can be done without much difficulty in just about every sport IF the involved parties wanted to converge. But that would mean that someone would have to give up a position of power.

So you want the travel rules to be the exact same? You want contact in the post to be the same? You want the Technical applications to be the same? What about a 24 second shot clock? Better yet, you think the players could handle those rules differences?

And that does not include the many abilities of officials that cannot get basic rules right at the high school level, now you want to add complicated NCAA or NBA type applications as well? We have a hard enough time to get some basic contact being called a foul and now we want to add changes or better yet make those rules apply to HS kids to grown azz men? The NBA would be less fun to watch for the average public and NCAA and NF players would have a hard time adjusting when many players have a problem dribbling, let alone getting across the division line in 8 seconds.

Peace

Absolutely! No reason to be different. At least that way you would be less likely to have people bastardizing the rule and calling it in a way that doesn't match any of the levels or calling it at one level as it is specified for a different level.
As far as the rule goes, YES. No reason to be different.
Again, Yes. No reason to be different.
Now, if you actually read my post, I suggested that there would be timing differences for different levels....that means the shot clock could be longer for lower levels.....even 8 minutes if you want. But the rules of when it starts and when it resets should be 100% the same.
That is the question you should ask about the current situation. I'm suggesting that there be no rules differences. If there are no differences, what is there for them to handle.
Oh please. There really isn't anything more complicated about the NBA RULES than in NCAA or HS that needs to be different.
Advantage/Disadvantage or whatever the current terminology would be is all you need to differentiate the levels. Let the pros play through more contact while kids are called more tightly. The rules can be the same, just the threshold of what becomes a foul vs incidental can change.

And again, before you refute my post with points relating to 24 seconds or 8 seconds, you might want to actually read and understand my post. If you had, you would have never made those points.

Could you make the rules all the same? Sure you could, but there are rules needed in the pro game, that don't exactly vibe with the ideas and philosophies of NFHS and vice versa.

Player gets fouled (non-flagrant) during a try and can't attempt his free throws...well are we going to go with the NBA rule and allow the opposing coach to pick the shooter along with not allowing the player to return for the rest of the game? Or do we go the NFHS route and allow the coach to pick the replacement shooter along with allowing the player to return in the game?

The NBA rule is needed because winning is of the uttermost importance and their rule discourages, say...Dwight Howard from getting "hurt" and allowing the coach to put a better shooter on the line...and bring back Dwight soon after (and now we'd get into substitution differences between NBA/NFHS but we'll keep this simple). In NFHS, where winning isn't the most important aspect of the game, their rule works fairly well for that level (though I think they should go the NCAA-M route).

There are also rules that are made the way they are in NFHS because the talent disparity between officials is vast. So in essence, there are rules and enforcements that are kept simple for the entire officiating pool. You want to burden some officials at the high school level with having to determine a secondary defender versus a primary defender, and then adjudicate an RA play...when some can hardly get a regular block/charge play correct? And then possiblly add in whether a play originates in the lower defensive box (NBA and NCAA-W)?

Heads Block, Tails Charge ...
 

Hey. I get it right 50% of the time.

That is the ultimate point. And if the NCAAM changes the block charge, we have officials at the high school level that already have a problem calling the block charge with just the players going airborne.

Pros do things because they know how to get an advantage. That is why there is a rule about throwing something on the court and counting a basket (OKC Fisher play) and no such rule would be appropriate at the high school level IMO.

Peace

Why not? All of those things, if they just took the NBA rule, would work just fine in a HS game, even with average HS officials. For that matter, a lot of HS officials already try to call a HS game with a lot of those rules even though they are not correct for HS.

Sure, if you got some NBA or D-League officials, and told them to call a high school game under NBA rules, then sure, you could have a game since a lot of the rules in essence are the same. And maybe that's your point...you could have a game, but I would say that some of the consequences of using pro rules in a high school environment would not be appreciated by those involved in that level. For instance, NFHS wants some real meat behind a coach getting a T...so what do they do? Award two shots and possession to the other team, AND the coach loses his box. Don't think they want to go with one shot and the ball inbounded at the point of interruption. Hell, it might even be worth it for some coaches if that's all the penalty is. Could you still play a game using those rules? Sure...but I don't think those at NFHS would think the penalty is appropriate considering sportsmanship is of greater importance to them.

And when a lot of average high school officials can't get a simpler rule set correct with the NFHS, then no, I don't think they'd do just fine.

I'm sure they could come to a common ground or the NFHS could just apply post game sanctions for T's if they wanted....much like the NBA applies fines for certain actions on top of the game penalty.

You could still have a few optional rules such as the coaching box/seat belt rule. Those are no big deal. I'm mostly talking about the actual game rules and game situations. No need for BI/GT to be different. No need for the 10 count or shot clock starting point to be different. No need for the pivot foot or travel rule to be different. Etc...
Part of the problem is that there IS more than one ruleset, not that any one is too complicated. Since many officials typically watch a lot of NCAA M or W and/or NBA, it isn't that they can't get one set right, they often mix and confuse 3-4 different sets. If there was only one set of rules, they would have a much easier time with whatever the rule set is, even if it had some more complicated elements.

I don't think the rule differences are really the problem. The problem is officials who just don't bother to learn the rules they are working, and the coach/fan misunderstandings are the same. Too many fans and coaches (and some officials) have misconceptions that aren't true in any level of ball.

Examples:
1. Defender must be "set" to draw a charge.
2. Players must go behind the half-court line for intentional foul or technical foul free throws.
3. It's a violation to go out of bounds (due to momentum) and be the first to touch the ball upon returning in bounds.

The rule differences aren't that big of a deal. With different people in charge, and each of them having different priorities, some of the differences even make sense.

Would it be better if everyone magically agreed to a universal rule set? Sure, maybe a little. But not significantly, IMO.

I see officials mix up rule sets more far more often that I see them make the kinds of errors above. This occurs with otherwise good officials that work more under more than one rule set, with rookies who don't yet know that the levels are different, and then officials that don't care to try to know the differences. The issues above that you listed are largely (but not entirely) issues of non-officials. But for those officials with those problems, no amount of rule convergence or divergence will change help their problems. They're just poor officials.

Most of us have to know this is not going to happen. You are not going to get the NCAA Committees to agree based on gender, then why would anyone seriously expect the NBA that has an agenda to make money and make their game watchable comparable to an organization that sole purpose is to deal with education at the core of their mission.

Peace

The primary reason for the NFHS to be different is that they fund their operations through the sales of their rules books. All of the educational goals could be met just the same if they just adopted in total the entire NCAA or NBA rule set. But, they'd lose their revenue stream.

That brings up the question of whether the NFHS in its current form is even justified if they can only operate through a forced artificial revenue stream. Is all of what they're doing serving a valid and necessary purpose or is it just a big boondoggle.

As an example, take soccer...same rules for kids of all ages from kindergarten all the way to the pros but the NCAA and NFHS inject theirs in the middle when it is a HS or NCAA game. If the same rules work for 8 year old Johnny and Suzy as works for Pele or Messi in soccer, basketball could easily do the same. In fact, FIBA is making efforts to be more in line with the US rule sets rather than striving to be different.

Not sure what soccer you've been watching. Every league my kid was in, from 4 to 12, the rules changed every single year.

As I said I think APG said it best as to why I think rules in the NBA would not be appropriate for an educational environment. We already have enough problems with basic rules at the NCAA level when small college rules apply, I would not want to see the RA, shot clock, technical foul application or coaching box restrictions all to be applied to high school coaches or students. Now that coach that cursed you out at the first T now gets to stand and better yet the language that is acceptable at the college level would not be acceptable at the high school level for the most obvious reasons. And you want the rules to be the same? OK, good luck with that.

That is great, but in football where there is many more safety rules and many more situations I would not want to see NCAA Rules apply to high school players. Heck just simply the rules on BBW and when a block is a cutback block or not. No way I would want a 15 year old that does not know how to read an play to now have to worry about getting cut at the knees or ankles as apart of playing the game. And then have 5 officials as opposed to 7 cover that play. In 7 person mechanics we can watch one guy most of a play to see if these kinds of situations are legal or not. And in baseball there is a very good reason the FPSR is different at the college level then the high school level. And the pros have no such rule at all. I do not think MLB would like a FPSR apply to their game. So if you are going to use other sports as an example for what basketball should do, at least know the challenges of those other sports. And this is would all be done in places that do not on a regular basis hire the same amount of officials to cover these many variable plays. Heck we cannot even get most of the country to have 3 officials on all games. Heck working 3 is common in my area, but many here never see that kind of assignments.

Peace

Our kids soccer clubs around here, and all over Oregon as AFAIK, use FIFA game rules. They do have different size fields and lengths of games and sometimes add minor modifications (slide tackles are not permitted at the younger rec levels) but the base rule book is the FIFA book. If your area is doing something different, it isn't because they need to, just that someone wants to.

You could say the same for Pop Warner or Bill George Football. They use NF rules but modify rules for "striper rules" or other rules do not and should not apply to kids below high school ages.

Peace