Pacers vs Heat - Game 5 (Video Request)
 

More physicality:

With just over nine minutes left in the 2nd Qtr the Heat's Andersen lowered his shoulder to body check Pacers forward Tyler Hansbrough. After Hansbrough got up, Andersen bumped him and then shoved him. An official rushed over to separate the two. Each received a T. The incident was reviewed and Andersen was assessed an F1 for unnecessary contact.

He actually knocked Hanbrough down with the first body block. Then he shoved him when they came back together. The combination of those 2 things should have earned him an ejection, IMO. I wouldn't be surprised if Birdman is not in the line-up Saturday night.

In NCAA(FF2)/Fed(FPF), he easily could have been ejected based on the initial body block.

And to top it off he improperly targetted Hanbrough, George is the player who pushed him on the previous play.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/LVHPj5J-Jv4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Can't believe Hansbrough would be penalized at all for this.

Once again, I do not think Tyler H is penalized for a push or not a push. He is penalized (rightfully so) for approaching Birdman and helping escalate the incident. If that happens in a NCAA or NF game I am working, it is an easy decision on my part. Do not tell me folks allow a player to do that and not do anything to them?

Peace

I disagree completely.

Lets look at the facts.

1. Anderson targets Tyler and cheap shots him and knocks him over.
2. Tyler gets up, upset of course (who would have thunk it). And steps towards Anderson's direction. What else is a rational person supposed to do?
3. Anderson squares up with him. Here both Tyler and Anderson are probably sharing words.
4. Anderson shoves him again.
5. Hansboro does not retaliate.

Anderson isn't ejected and I completely disagree with Hansboro's T. If you are going to give a double T in that instance, which I assume for squaring up and talking trash, then hit Anderson with another one for the shove.

But I would have him tossed for the first contact when he took a cheap shot and issued him with a flagrant.

Walk away.

By "approaching" Anderson, I assume you are referring to the 6 inch step Hansbrough took toward Anderson? If that is "approaching" then you must have a lot of T's in your games...

Now maybe he said something he shouldn't have. Fine, give him the T. But no way did Hansbrough get up and go after Anderson. And to give both of them the same penalty for that altercation is, imo, ridiculous.

My other thought on this is why did it take the official so long to get in there. He blew the whistle on the initial cheap shot move by Anderson, and then just stood out there. Maybe closing in and getting in there could have stopped the rest of this? Maybe not...not sure I would want to get in between those two, but at least get into the area and make your presence known.

Anyone who does that in this instance would be a robot. He took 1/2 - 1 full step in Anderson's direction. Saying his actions and Anderson's are equal is just malarky IMO.

Unless you know he did not say something or words were not exchanged on any level, you have no idea why there was or would not have been given. They clearly had words. He did not walk away and at least in my experience at levels lower than the NBA, it is completely warranted to give a T for a player that has words and approaches a player no matter what they did to them. It is no different then if a guy pops off and then he is punched. Well in the NF rules for sure that is considered fighting for saying something that instigates a fight. This was not quite a fight, but I am not saying Tyler H is innocent. And the officials was there to know what was said or not said on some level.

And unless someone can find me a rule that says how far they step towards or when it acceptable to get in the face of an opponent, then it is up to the official on the floor to determine what is over the top. This is why we get paid the big bucks (and certainly an NBA official) to make those decisions.

Peace

He didn't even move that far...he is knocked down and lands on the free throw line. After standing back up, his feet are never more than about 6" from the free throw line. Anderson takes two full steps - from outside the half circle - and makes the contact with Hansbrough. Like you said - malarkey.

As I already said, maybe Hansbrough said something to deserve the T. Don't know. But unless he did say the magic words, no way did both players deserve the same penalty for that "after the cheap shot" action.

APG can probably explain the actual rule, but I believe this is a double foul in the NBA where at other levels it would not be. I still see a T on Tyler H, but it would not be a double foul (maybe a false double). And that is why we all do not have the same judgment. Maybe in your game you would call nothing and others would.

Peace

If Hansbrough gets a T on that play, then Anderson should have been ejected.

Bingo. Here's the breakdown I see.

Hansbrough:
Technical for not walking away/jawing at Anderson

Anderson:
Flagrant 1 for hip-checking Hansbrough
Technical for shoving Hansbrough

Where is Anderson's technical for not walking away/jawing at Hansbrough?

Um, that is exactly what appears to have happened in this situation. You do not give another T for a shove. Now if you consider one of those other acts as a flagrant 2 act, that is fine.

Peace

Why not?

If Hansbrough is getting a T for what he did, the right thing to do is call Anderson for a live ball personal F1 and a dead ball T. The shove was a completely separate act from the initial foul and deserves its own penalty.

From the Commissioner...
 

Stern tells NBC Sports Radio: Andersen should have been ejected for Hansbrough shove

I can see giving Hansbrough the T. Unless he turns his back or when he's approached Hansbrough keeps his mouth shut he's in danger of getting one. What I can't see is allowing Andersen to stay in the game after the inital contact. The NBA's definition of a FF2 is a foul that's "unecessary and excessive." It's hard to believe that contact wasn't determined to meet both those criteria.

And hot off the presses...
 

NEW YORK (AP) - Miami forward Chris Andersen has been suspended for Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals for his altercation with Indiana's Tyler Hansbrough in Game 5.

The NBA also upgraded Andersen's foul to a Flagrant 2, which would have meant an automatic ejection had it been called at the time.

Andersen knocked Hansbrough to the floor from behind with 9:02 left in the second quarter, then shoved him backward after Hansbrough got up. The NBA also says Friday in a statement that Andersen "resisted efforts to bring the altercation to an end."

I'm willing to bet in the post-game evaluation, or nightly video conferencing and tape breakdown - not tossing Andersen was pointed out.

I was surprised after Dan Crawford went to the monitor and stuck with just a F1 and T.

As I figured he has been suspended.

NBA Rules maybe?

Peace

And Hansbrough's T was rescinded. The right decision was (eventually) made, IMO. Watching this in a restaurant last night, I thought it was a horrible decision, especially with video available to get it right the first time.

So if he MF'd Anderson or said something else inappropriate that is OK?

I think that is a horrible precident considering that both had words with each other.

Peace

Regarding Hansbrough's T - I agree with JRut. Regardless of what happened to him, he had to option of turning and walking away and he didn't. Even if he just stays down on the floor he's not getting a T. Instead, he square off with Andersen.

That being said, I'm still baffled how the crew could review this one and not toss him. For me, it falls into the category of two areas I consider for an ejection:

1. Sometimes you just forfeit your chance to play.
2. There are some things you don't get the chance to do twice.

BTW, this video has an extra angle. It's also larger.

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bQypXvLKGBs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Which one(s)?

The only one I see that is relevant says that the shove wouldn't be a T if the player had already been ejected. Since they didn't call the first contact an F2, Anderson wasn't ejected. Thus, a subsequent T is still possible.

I don't see any reason in what I'm reading that says a player can't get a T for shoving someone if they do it within a certain amount of time of committing a personal foul.

If you know of NBA rules that say otherwise, cite them. And remember, they did call an F1 AND a T on Anderson...and there was no mention in the NBA's followup of the play of that being incorrect.

I am not an NBA Rules guru. I am under the impression that these acts have to be treated as a double foul when situations take place during a dead ball against opponents. They do not handle these things (to my knowledge) like they do at other codes. And if you noticed, the only issue was whether a foul should have been given, not how many fouls should have been given because of each action.

Now maybe APG or others more versed on the rules can clarify either way, but that is my understanding of why this was handled that way. I am going to assume that the officials at that level know their rules better then most of us here.

Peace

OK. so what in my original statement are you disagreeing with again? Or are you just having fun trying to disagree?

I believe you were suggesting that another T should be called for the same event. Not sure that is something I would do in this situation or proper.

Also I believe my statements were first. ;)

Peace

http://notjustaboutfootball.files.wo...dorf.jpg?w=545

:D

Just my thoughts:

Could the officials have given Anderson two T's for his actions after the flagrant foul? That's nothing that says they can't if they view the squaring up and shove as two separate actions. From what I see during player altercations and how penalties are divided up, I don't think Anderson's actions warranted two T's. The chest bump and push happen bang bang, so I see no issue with only giving one T. As is, I thought Anderson should have been given a flagrant foul penalty two. But if they thought it was a flagrant foul penalty one, then double T to both players with Anderson getting tossed.

I just do not believe in principle giving two different Ts there. It is all in the same action and the official got there to stop anything else.

Peace

Do you mean you don't believe that Anderson should have gotten two T's instead of the one he got? I think in an NBA game, that's how this would be handled 9/10 times.

In that case, someone should have told Tyler to get in a free shove cuz it's all covered by one T.

So are you saying you give a T for each curse word when players a jawing at each other too?

Everything was directed at the same person in the same sequence. I do not see those as two completely different acts.

Peace

I was not. I said that calls should been a flagrant on Anderson for the live ball contact and ONE T on Andersen for the dead ball action. I was suggesting that there should be no way that Andersen get out of that with ONLY the flagrant.

He got a T as well after the Flagrant Foul.

Peace

Curse Words For Dummies ...
 

"Mother" is not a curse word, and should not add to the penalty.

It is, however, an extenuating circumstance that comes with increased penalty.

And that is exactly what I was saying he should have received. :/

If you want to keep arguing for my point, I'll let you have both sides and I'll step aside.

I was under the impression he got all those penalties. It seems like you were saying he didn't or you were not aware he got those penalties in the first place.

Peace

http://content.internetvideoarchive....8/004966_3.jpg

:p

When this discussion started, he hadn't had all of those penalties, some came after the game was over, remember?

The only penalty that came after the game was over was Anderson getting his FF1 upgraded to a FF2. He was already given a T as part of the double T with Tyler.

I thought the argument was whether Anderson should have received a second T for the shove after the two players squared off.

APG's post is spot on. At least that is what I thought Camron was trying to debate with me that he should have received another T then was already given in the game. I guess there is a case to be made, but I just think that is being too technical when everything took place at the same basic time.

Peace

I can't find it on the NBA website, but according to several other news outlets the NBA rescinded Hanbrough's technical as well.

I thought it was about whether Anderson should have been tossed for any of his stupidity. FF2 or the initial hit, or a flagrant T for the shove (if that's even an option in the NBA.)

If you were paying attention I said basically I would have had no problem with a FF2 given to Anderson for the body block, I just do not feel you give two Ts to Anderson (he got one after the FF) for what took place.

Peace

Nope. My point was that if Tyler got a T for his part of that altercation, that Andersen should get a T in addition to his flagrant foul....that the flagrant didn't preclude getting a T for the square-off/shove. You couldn't just give Andersen a flagrant and consider that enough.

Well the NBA rescinded Tyler's T and upgraded Anderson's FF1 to FF2.

Looks like they didn't think the "face off" between Tyler and Anderson was the same.

Well the officials at the time did and at all of our levels there would be no retracting of a penalty. The NBA has rules for accumulation of Ts and can go back and take action on those decisions. But in my game, a player tha does that is getting a T if I am giving the other player one. If you want to avoid a T, walk away. If you cannot do that, then you get what you deserve. And I see players at the HS level walk away from someone often, so I do not give a pass to a pro player that has more to lose.

Peace

So are you saying you're a HS official?:p