Video Request:Spurs-Grizzlies End of 1st Quarter Foul on Half-Court Attempt (Clipped)
 

At the end of the first quarter Ginobili was in the midst of attempting a try 10 feet or so past midcourt when a foul was called and he was given three free throws. While watching live I thought it was an obvious foul and he would be awarded three free throws. They reviewed the play, but not sure what was reviewable on the play (not familiar with NBA rules on this).

Upon replay there were some interesting twists to the play that brought up the following questions:

1) If in the middle of a try, an airborne A1 fumbles the ball in a manner that appears to not be recoverable in order to complete the try, but is fouled by B1 prior to coming back to the ground, do you have a shooting foul? I have concluded that this is a non-shooting foul since the try ended when you deem the fumble made the try certain to be unsuccessful.

Would anyone consider making this particular play a non-shooting foul?

It appeared that Ginobili fumbled the ball while trying to bring it up for the try and prior to any contact. It might have been possible for him to still recover it mid-air, which makes my question irrelevant on this play IMO because this would mean the try is not certain to be over.

2) The replay did not show nearly as much contact as I originally thought, but would like to see it again. How could C better position himself to see the play better? Or was he where he needed to be?

3) Since Ginobili had already began fumbling the ball and there wasn't as much contact upon reviewing the replay, would anyone no-call this contact? I would not have no-called this since he may have been able to recover and complete the try had there not been contact. However, if you consider the fumble unrecoverable, I suppose one could argue the contact incidental.

1. Whether it's a shooting foul has nothing to do with when the try ends.

Something to think about...

The player lost control of the ball in a manner that was not a shot. Is there any difference between him passing the ball and fumbling the ball as far as it relates to fouls?

I think that if he doesn't have the ball he isn't a shooter. He might still be fouled, or course, but you can't shoot if you don't have the ball.

Want to point out they did not go to replay. They just gathered at halfcourt to discuss the play. Anyhow, here is the play (or will be once it's done processing):

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I am not sure I follow. He is not actually an airborne shooter since he never released the ball for a try. He began the habitual shooting motion so he was in the act of a try prior to the fumble. But, the fumble, deemed to have led to the certainty the try would be successful ends the try. So, he is not an airborne shooter and he is no longer in the act of a try, so it cannot be a shooting foul.

Or are you simply saying that the only determining factor for a shooting foul is whether the A1 was "shooting or in the act of a try"?

C Position
 

In regards to #2, Neal ran right in front of the C as the contact occurred, so not sure how good of a look he had at the play. Not sure what else he could have done differently.

You mentioned the end of the try. Normally, the end of the try is not at all relevant to whether a foul is a shooting foul. I don't think I'd have called this a shooting foul, but that stems more from the fact that he never really gathered the ball to start his habitual shooting motion.

If he had gathered, started his try, and then fumbled prior to being fouled, I'd have the same ruling. Thinking this through, I can see that it's likely because the try was over and there is no airborne shooter since the try was never actually released. That would be a sasquatch, though, and it's likely to look more like the video play and be ruled as if there never was a try to begin with.

I only responded because there are a lot of non-shooting fouls that happen before the try is over (shooter is fouled after landing) and plenty of shooting fouls that happen after a try is completed (airborne shooter does not mean the try is still ongoing).

On this play, now that I've watched it, I have him shooting at the time of the foul. While I don't think he as solid control, I don't think it was out of player control yet...and the foul made sure he lost it.

Gotcha. Thanks.

No way was that a fumble. It was a try.

I don't even see a foul from the angles shown in the video. More like a flop on the part of Manu.

There is definitely a foul that prevents Manu from raising his right arm.

Ok...I can see a little contact there. In slo mo, the contact occurs after he loses the ball on his hip.

Manu is a left handed shooter too. He embellished the contact to his right arm with some antics there.

In the air? How do you embellish in the air?

Peace

I see no try. If this is a foul, it's not a shooting foul... that said, I see no foul either.

Do you not see a try because of the apparent lack of control? Or do you not think he had begun the habitual shooting motion?

I could understand the former, but would not agree if it is the latter.

He flops his right arm out away from his body thereby exaggerating what could possibly be miscontrued as a shooting motion. Most people (and I would hope the officials) know Manu is a lefty - especially from 40 feet.

In slo mo, he loses control of the ball on his left butt cheek while fumbling a dribble. Sensing he's in trouble (and being a smart competitor) he tries to feign a shot attempt by flailing his right arm. He manages to draw contact.....and a whistle.

In real time, I may have had the same thing as the calling official.

I am not suggesting that when he hit the floor he did not embellish, but not with his arm being grabbed to prevent him from shooting the ball.

And for the record they did go and review the play and came to the same conclusion they did when the whistle was blown. And if Ginobli would have just slapped the arm and did nothing else then I might agree with you. But he held on to Allen's arm and pulled him down. That is a dangerous play and should be called and ruled accordingly to the way it took place.

Peace

Wrong thread....LOL

You are right. ;)

Peace

"Dangerous"?

I'm big on "protecting the shooter", but let's be real. Manu is not a right handed shooter. He's a lefty. He wasn't shooting the ball. Rather, just trying to draw contact. He got a "grab"...and it wasn't dangerous. Now, if the defender grabbed a leg or tripped him, then ya, I'd go along with "dangerous" in that play.

It's been already pointed out, but he was responding to the wrong thread when he wrote that.

:o

sorry 'bout that, rut

No your fault. I was reading into something not paying attention and responded to the wrong topic. That is what you get when you open too many windows at the same time. My bad.

Peace

Very Relevent, Plus, It's A Great Quote, From A Great Movie ...
 

... and it's only ten seconds.

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