Pac-12 Officiating
 

Didn't remember reading it here. The link below gives some insight into what the coaches want in a new Super of Officials. Seems the coaches feel there is some sort of West Coast bias with "big name" officials.

Pac-12 coaches discuss league's officiating mess - college basketball - ESPN

Coaches always think there's a bias against them. Geno thinks the officials are biased against male coaches, for example. The deck is always stacked, and it's never in my favor.

The PAC12 coaches have no idea what or who they want.

"We want to get someone who can attract more quality to work our league. The ones we have are very good.''

Absolute nonsense. Why is there a pressing need to attract more top officials who normally work east of the Mississippi, if the ones that they have now are very good?

That article lacks any substance.

Well some people feel that the Pac 10/12 has had some of the worst staffs of all of the major conferences. Now that might be true or not, but guys out East are not going out west unless you give them more money to work those games. Or give them a lot of double dip opportunities working the Pac 12 and then a minor conference on an "off night."

Peace

So let them stay out east. The PAC 12 doesn't need them.

Apparently, the pac 12 coaches would disagree with you rocky.

Bring back Richie Ballesteros and Booker Turner.

Not Mark Reisling.

They may, but every conference's coaches think some other conference has better referees.

So...Pac 12 coaches don't think officials on the East Coast have families, too?

Seven of the 32 D-I conferences have schools in the Western and Mountain time zones (along with two independents). If I live in the Eastern or Central time zones, why the heck would I want to travel that far when I have tons of games thousands of miles closer to me? The Deadspin article posted during the tournament quoted Ed Corbett as saying the travel is the worst part for him and he's generally just going up and down the eastern seaboard. The money the Pac 12 schools would have to fork over for an Eastern guy to go out there would be prohibitive.

They probably want some of Curtis Shaw's big dawgs and maybe some of the Big 10 officials who live west of the Mississippi. Can't see any Eastern Seaboard officials taking up with the PAC 12. Though Tom Eades worked in the PAC 12 this past season.

I would think with the changes at the SEC that some of the ones that left might return. I hope Eades gets over his health problems and is back next year. No need for him to go across the country to call a game when there many in his zip code that he can call.

This sounds like the coaches simply want what the other power conferences have. They could be the worst officials in D1 ball...but they would still want them just because they work in the east and likely can't have them.

It feeds into the notion of "east coast bias" and the Pac-whatever is desperate for respect and return to glory...so they have to get those big name east coast guys.

Nonsense. I don't believe for a second that they don't already have officials that are equivalent to the Big Ten, Big East or SEC already filling their rosters. All they're interested in is well known names. It's not a quality issue at all.

Are the names in the Pac 12 not big enough?

You got Dave Hall, Verne Harris, Randy McCall, Greg Nixon, I could go on and on, top guys that go deep into the tourney every year.

I'm sure this is a ploy by coaches to get the eye off their back because they're losing the race on recruiting top 10 guys to east coast teams.

Booker "UCLA" Turner.
Look up the Bruins' record in games he officiated.

I think what they are seeing are guys who work in the ACC and/or SEC and/or Big East and/or Big 10 and/or Big XII. With the PAC 12 big dawgs there isn't nearly the crossover with other major conferences.

And there won't be - because of the travel issues and time zones, etc., etc.. But to listen to these coaches, the Pac-12 would be so much better if only we had those East Coast officials come out here to ref the games.

A better idea would be to get more of those East Coast Coaches to come out here and do a better job of recruiting and coaching. If only Pitino and Kryz-whateverhisnameis, and Donovan, and Izzo would come out here and coach...then we would have real basketball in the Pac-12.

Ha ha, that's great. Turn it around on the coaches and target them for replacement by eastern people.

However, haven't we already seen that?
Ben Howland (now gone), Sean Miller, Steve Alford (Midwest), Dana Altman (Midwest), Andy Enfield, Herb Sendek, and Johnny Dawkins all have significant ties to Eastern or Midwest schools.

I know of a guy in Virginia Beach who works the Big XII (just worked his first Final Four) and another guy who lives in South Carolina (never been past the first weekend) who works in the Big XII. So I don't think it's travel logistics that's keeping guys from Texas/Nebraska/Oklahoma/Kansas/Iowa from working in the PAC 12. I think there is something else at play here. (what it is I don't know)

It's another 2 hours time difference between most of those schools and most Pac-12 schools. That's an awful big part of it.

Well, I was talking about the GOOD coaches from back east...:p

Well working in those states are right around other smaller mid-major conferences. And if you work in the Big 12, you also work for the same person that assigns smaller conferences in the back yard of all those states. So if you get a game in those states, you are in many cases a short drive from other D1 games even games not assigned by the Big 12 Supervisor. Going to Oregon or Arizona is not going to be very easy to work a smaller conference D1 game. Remember not everyone works basketball full time and working a game and getting back the next day might be a problem if you live in the Midwest and East trying to work a Pac 12 game. I cannot think of any Midwestern official that works the Pac 12 on a regular basis. I am sure there is someone, I just do not know who they would be and that includes the big timers.

Peace

Adding on to JRut's comments: Do both of those guys have families? I can see doing it once in a while but if you're away from home a decent amount to begin with while staying within 500 miles from home, I can't see that going over well with the spouse/kids if you make a habit of it.

Also, the Big XII/X is still just a one time zone trip from the East with Colorado out of the mix (Texas Tech is the longest trip). Now they even have a school - West Virginia - that's not too far away.

Sure it is. There just are not very many schools very close out west. Even though there are a few very big cities, there are only a few. Everything is spread out. Instead of a 1-2 hour flights or even a drive, you've got 3-5 hour flights to get to/from your next location. Or, you don't even have a major airport close to the school and you've got a flight and a drive or a flight and some puddle hopper connector.

Once you get west of the central plains, the scale of everything related to travel just doubles....the time and the cost.

Why would an official from Virgina want to spend 4-6 extra hours on the plane to come to the Pac-12 and ONLY the Pac-12 for the same pay when he can bounce between the Big East, Big Ten, ACC, and SEC with short flights.

They're just not going to do that.

The guys they want to see are on the road 25+ days a month already, so I don't think 9-to-5 rqmts would be a problem. I'm sure, as you pointed out, it has more to do with having games to work before and after to make the entire trip more profitable.

It would probably take some cooperation in scheduling the WCC, MWC, WAC, & PAC 12 on opposite nights and those coordinators all picking up some of the same officials to get some of the big names to cross the Continental Divide.

Where did I say an official from Virginia going to the PAC 12? I said if an official from South Carolina or Virginia can work a regular Big XII schedule, then I can see an official from Texas/Oklahoma/Kansas/Iowa/Nebraska working in the PAC 12.

I live in Virginia, I grew up in California. Give me a little more credit on knowing my geography. :rolleyes:

Yes, they are both family men. When you're working 70 -100 games in a season you're not coming home between a majority of your games.

Still not the same. The Big12 has enough overlap with areas of high population density that it still works. The flight connections and alternative D1 leagues are still there. Those Big12 officials are more likely to be working Big10 or SEC than they would come out to Oregon or Washington.

I was at a camp where travel was addressed and it is tough for those to be that far away from home with kids and job and other obligations. If it is a struggle already for officials on that level, it is going really hard when you are going away and likely working less games to make that one trip. At least if someone goes to Kansas or Texas, they can work a couple of other games close by and make more money. And whether we like it or not, a lot of this is money related. Of course someone like me that has never worked a D1 game in my life would go out west in a second even if that was my only game for that week. But for a guy you see on TV 4 nights out of the week, that might be a little much. And I live in Chicago where I can catch a single plane to just about anywhere in the world because O'Hare Airport is a hub of the country. I am sure that is not the case in smaller areas or even in other parts of the state I live where to get to O'Hare might take you well over an hour to fly in that direction.

I just think the people out west need to develop their officials better and work with those in the smaller conferences more as it seems is the case or the expectations at least here in this part of the country. But then again this gripe is from coaches, so I think we need to consider that fact too.

Peace

So based on the responses in the this thread, I believe everyone here has proven the PAC 12 coaches' point: The PAC 12 doesn't have access to the same quantity of quality officials that the other 5 Big Boy conferences have.

Never disputed that part of the issue. I just think the remedy is not realistic.

Peace

Nope...you have just fallen into the same trap as the whiny coaches out here. There are plenty of high quality officials available in Washington, Oregon, California, Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, etc., etc...we don't need guys to travel from the east to rescue us out here.

Possibly, but it may also come down to instruction. Then again, I don't get to watch enough Pac 12 ball to really make a judgment on the quality.

In the East it isn't even a matter of flying. In the pre-major expansion version of the Big East you could hit every school using Amtrak if you wanted to. Pitt and Syracuse were the only places where officials really needed to fly. Every other school was along the Northeast Corridor. The smaller D-1s (Ivy, Northeast, MAAC) fall into that category now.

When you have 5 conferences (Big East/Big Ten/SEC/ACC/Big XII) that have access to officials, and can share those same officials, from the Rocky Mountains to the Altantic Ocean and another conference that only has access to officials from the Pacific Ocean to the Rockies (to include 3 large states with very little population:Idaho/Montana/Wyoming), how do you figure the officiating pool is equal?

I'm not talking about the quality of what we see on TV. I'm talking about access to a pool of officials. The farther you go east, the denser the population, the more basketball there is, and the more basketball officials there are.

I'm not making a judgment one way or another about the product the PAC 12 is getting. Those PAC 12 coaches are no different than any of the coaches anywhere else in the country. They like seeing "TV" faces working their games. An ACC coach can turn on his TV at night an see officials from his last game working big games in the Big XII or Big East or SEC or Big 10.

I can speak to this fact too. NAIA, JUCO, D2 or D3 coaches love to see guys that worked on TV or that work D1 at their games. One more pressure for those working to stay closer to home when you have a full time job and a family.

Peace

Didn't say it was equal...said there are plenty of good officials out here who - if they chose to move east - would be working all those same tv games tomorrow.

Have to agree with BNR on this one. If you are going to limit your pool of officials by geography, then there is no way you can claim you are getting the best officials for your games. Especially when you figure population and number of officials in each geographical area into the equation, statistics would indicate you are losing out on more top officials than you have access to. Doesnt mean there isnt quality officials out west or that they are in need of any rescuing, but it is foolish to think the pac12 is getting the best officials in the country on their games when they are not using many officials from the majority of the country.

I also dont buy the travel excuse when it comes to the top officials. As was already stated, those guys are on the road 25+ days a month already. Would it be inconvenient for them to go to the west coast, probably a little. But lets not pretend that they couldnt pick up games in some of the mid-major conferences while they are there. These guys can get games from a mid-major assignor on any night they want with just a phone call. They wouldnt have any problem scheduling a series of games out west all in a week that would allow them to take one big trip and couple it with numerous smaller trips.

So using your own logic, the conferences in the east are not getting the best officials because they are not hiring people from the west either. And why aren't they hiring them? Because of the travel costs involved.

Road trips...
 

I've had this exact conversation with two men who worked the Final Four the past few years--because I went to school in Los Angeles but now live in Omaha (and am about to move to Boston).

The reality is,a guy can fly from the east coast to Omaha, work a Big Ten game at Iowa/Minnesota/Nebraska, work a Big 12 game at Kansas/Iowa State/K-State/Missouri, work a Missouri Valley conference game, and pick up a Summit League game if he wanted to, all within a four-hour drive of a single airport. The MVC pays as much if not more than the power conferences (tiered structure) to get high profile officials...and they come from both sides of the country.

The real issue is there aren't any officials flying east to officiate Pac-12 games!!!

As long as we are independent contractors and the conferences or NCAA is not putting officials on a full salary and staff, you will not ever get guys to cross the country unless they are compensated to do so. Keep in mind that the officials pay for their own flights and travel even if it is apart of their fee.

Peace

The supervisors out east are missing out on some, supervisors out west are missing out on a lot. It's basic math.

BNR are you implying that Clougherty and Greenwood are missing out on you........:D:D:D

If the guys on the East Coast are so much better....have we discussed why ??? Is it an East Coast bias ??? I say no..... Look at the summer leagues that take place in the following areas

Norfolk - Boo Williams

DC - Kenner League

Balt - Summer nights at the Dome

Phillly - Sonny Hill League

NY - Rucker Park

Jim Burch ( CIAA and former Southern Assigner ) once said if you can work in those summer leagues and survive you can work anywhere in the country.....

I know this thread neccessarily isn't about deveoping officials but thought I would throw it out there.....Curious as to what you guys out in PAC 12 country think about development and are all the top hs athletes playin football ????

The "travel challenge" is two fold:

1) It's VERY difficult to catch a return flight from the Pacific Time Zone to the Central/Eastern Time Zones THE MORNING AFTER working a game to be in your next city/arena by 5:30pm for the 7pm tip-off.
+ Even if your 6am flight from LAX goes to Chicago, it doesn't arrive until noon at the earliest...and then you have to factor in airline delyas due to weather/driving to campus....you don't want to be known as missing games due to travel issues.
+ It CAN work however, I know a Midwest official who worked a game @ UNLV on a Saturday night, took a midnight flight to Chicago and worked a 2pm CT game at Illinois St on Sunday afternoon.

2) Even if you stayed out West and tried to piggy-back games, most of the conference play on the same nights (at least during the conference season). Thr/Sat leagues: PAC-12, West Coast Conf., Big West, Big Sky. Wed/Sat league: Mountain West. (there are other leauges, but you can research them yourself)
+ There are certainly exceptions to the scheduling, but leagues do this because of the cost savings to have a team play 2 road games on the same trip.

Several mid-major leagues have made adjustments to increase the number of "high profile" officials working their games: Mid-American Conf. changed their game dates to include Sun's and Fri's (general "off" days). The Missouri Valley created a "bonus pay" system: you give us 10 dates w/ 3 being Saturdays and will give you $500 extra per game. MANY other leagues have implemented a "tiered-pay scale" to attract guys...All of these strategies have worked and may be something that the Pac-12 and other leagues out West can implement to achieve their goals.

PAC-12 already has a tiered pay system. I believe the Big Sky does also.

I think the travel issues are the biggest reason....they just can't get to many other locations the next day in time. To be able to work back-to-back dates, they just take games in areas where they can easily link things together.

Can you imagine driving from Pullman or Eugene on a snowy January night to the nearest major airport? Not a chance of getting a flight back to anywhere until the next morning. With that and the time change, you're not getting back to anywhere east of the central USA until late afternoon at best. Even early departing non-stop fights to major hubs don't arrive until after noon (for central locations) or even later for the eastern third.

Westerners just have to accept the fact that the east is far more densely populated and realized that has various implications. From where i live, there is only ONE other major US city within a 10 hour drive....and probably 15 hours to get more than 4.

I have lived on the west coast, then east coast, then the south and now the west coast. The officials on the west coast are not on the same level as the officials on the east coast period dot. IMO, there are many reasons why this is the case and it is something that is talked about openly on the east coast. Part of it has already been mentioned - there are more games to work on the east coast. By the time someone is working a regular schedule in the ACC, SEC, Big East, etc. they have worked smaller D1 conferences (this is the norm). On the west coast, an official can be one good summer away from working in the PAC-12. Depending on who vouches for them, they could survive until they are known by coaches and accepted. It is almost like camping and politics can put you in the PAC-12 on the west coast and the Big South on the east coast. I am skipping right over any potential discussion as to whether politics play a part in this - I think that is a given.

Are there more top officials in the East? Yes, there are five power conferences covering that part of the country and extending into the Midwest. There is only ONE power conference in the West and three decent conferences which are considered second-tier or mid-major. So obviously there aren't going to be as many officials.

Are there better officials in the East? No, the top guys in the PAC12, WAC, WCC, and Mtn West can call just as well as the top guys in the East.

The situation is just that due to the population distribution of the country and the population density, there are fewer schools in the West and they are farther apart. So the needs are different. There is less need for officials in the West and those needed must be able to do more traveling. Not everyone can do that. Also, since there are fewer slots, there is a question as to whether there is more competition for them or if once a conference supervisor gets some guys then no one else has a chance to move up or get in. So do guys not get pushed to continue to improve? Perhaps.

If the conferences in the West were to hire the same number of officials as the assignors in the East, then the guys would work far fewer games. The coaches may or may not like that, but it likely would hurt the development, progress, experience, and sharpness of the western officials.

Btw someone asked about the level of play in the West at the HS level.
Does anyone really think that the players coming out of SoCal, Vegas, Seattle, the Bay Area aren't competing with those from the rest of the country? Just look at the D1 scholarship recruits. There are plenty of kids coming from these places. Heck the clear #1 HS team in the country this past season was from Utah and on the prep academy scene Findlay from Vegas has been ranked #1 for much of the past three years.

I think that is largely neutral. For the same reasons that there are fewer slots to be filled (fewer schools due to smaller overall population) there will also be fewer officials. The ratio of slots to officials shouldn't be that different.

In the east, it is just easier for a big name to work games in 10 different conferences throughout the year why would they bother to fly an extra 3-4 hours (maybe each way) for a comparable game....unless the compensation allowed them to take the next day off and make similar money.

I disagree. I'm not sure if you are basing your statement on opinion only, but I am saying this based on opinion, film breakdown and other factors; in the end I'm talking about call accuracy. I have been in the room when a retired NBA official (he wasn't retired at the time) broke down a game officiated by one of the "Big Dogs" from the west coast on it. Basic stuff - you have to be in the correct position to have the best chance to make the correct call. If someone is consistently hustling out of position the calls become guesses and in this case several wrong guesses. Now, that says nothing about communication skills which as I'm sure we all know can allow an official to get away with wrong calls.

I know the processes on both coasts intimately and I've been in the room with the "Big Dogs" from both coasts to hear what they have to say. I have been evaluated by officials from both coasts - and raked over the coals by evaluators from both coasts. :D

For the most part, what we see on TV is the same or similar: official makes a call and it is accepted the majority of the time. That doesn't really speak to call accuracy or who is better does it?

So there is some credence to the old forum joke about how fast an official from SoCal can rise to the top. :D

Tome is right on......

The chances of Clougherty taking someone in the CAA without a few years in BS / MEAC / PAT - IVY is spot on..... You don't get in BE without a few years in MAAC / CAA / A - 10.

What I am curious about on the west coast is how do the spervisors work together ??? Outside of the love fest between two supervisors in the Va / Carolina area, everybody else works pretty well together,,,,

That goes for any league in the that is primarily located in the east of the Mississippi. You are not working the Big 10 if you do not work the MAC, Summit or Horizon for some time. And even in the Big 12 you will not be hired by the supervisor in the Big 12 without working in the Sun Belt or OVC as a general rule. I thought that was the case out west, but maybe not.

Peace

I also have worked games on both coasts and in the middle. And I have worked with people who bragged about how many D-1 conferences they worked - and then stepped on the court with them and wanted to shoot myself in the head, they were that horrible.

So the "big dogs" in the east get to work more conferences than out here - again that's because of population density and the number of schools. Certainly doesn't mean that the only "good" officials are on the east coast.

We are not judging these things by who we might have worked with, we are judging this by what we see. I am not impressed with a lot of Pac 12 officiating. Of course there are more officials out this way and there are good and buy guys all the way around, but I see a lot of things that make me scratch my head out when watching in the Pac 10/12 games. That being said I have seen some outstanding officials work games, but overall I wonder where they get some of them. And if a lot of them are getting to that level without having to go through the fire, then that might explain that.

Peace

I hope my posts clearly communicated the fact that I have done more than work games with some people from both coasts. I have been to camps, been evaluated and worked games at various levels on both coasts...as a resident of the area. I am also talking purely about call accuracy and the work that is done to get to the point of (hopefully) making calls consistently. I have friends on both coasts; very good people both places.

I missed that post. In fact, I missed where it was a discussion of East Coast vs. West Coast.

I thought is was a discussion about how many quality officials conferences east of the Rockies have access to as complared to how may quality officials conferences west of the Rockies have access to. The Big Ten is not "East Coast", neither is the SEC or Big XII.

You mean to tell me we are back to the Biggie vs. TuPac beef again? (Sorry I could not resist).

It was, but some people get offended when you point out deficiencies of places they are from. I agree, this is about pure numbers more than anything. It has already been stated the western part of the country obviously does not have the population that the eastern part has. I would just think purely off of numbers you would have more good officials just like you have more good teams from the midwestern to eastern parts of the state.

Peace

Guess I need to type slowly for a few of us to understand what I am saying...I have not argued the numbers. But the numbers really don't matter - there are way more D-1 schools "back east" so they need way more D-1 officials "back east". Hopefully we can all agree on that. But that does not mean that the Pac-12 officials are somehow deficient or not as good as people who work the SEC or ACC or Big East...

I appreciate tomegun's comments as he has been in multiple places and seen officiating at the various levels. But I don't think that he is saying that there aren't any good officials in the Pac. He can correct me if I am wrong.

As far as being "offended" by someone supposedly pointing out a deficiency, that's just a stupid comment. Not really surprising considering...but first - not offended by anyone else's opinion. It's a discussion forum where we discuss opinions. And so far the only "deficiency" pointed out has been that there are more people living in the "east" than the "west". That's not a deficiency - it's a reason to live out here.

It can if those top officials are only top officials by taking a completely different route to the top. If officials have more competition and see better basketball overall in one part of the country as compared to another part of the country, I think that could influence who overall is better. Can a west coast official work every night of the week the way a guy in the Midwest and East Coast official while not working every top conference during that week? I do not know the answer to that question, just asking.

Maybe I am wrong, but I do not recall anyone saying here that there were no good officials in the Pac 12.

Well that depends on what you value I guess. ;)

Peace

I'll go back to my point which has to do with D1 coaches. D1 coaches like to know that the officials who work their games are guys who also work other major conferences want to use for their big games. Really has nothing to do with quality. They want to feel comfortable that at least one of the guys working their game that night is the cream of the crop across the country and they get that confirmation by seeing that guy working a big TV game in another conference.

My take on this issue has nothing to do with "difficiencies" or "West Coast vs. East Coast".

Ok. That's a valid point. My counter would be that the PAC officials are also working WCC games like Gonzaga vs St. Mary, etc...or working the MWC games or Big Sky games - all of which are televised out here after Ll you guys have gone to bed. So they do see their officials working other games in other venues, just not ACC or SEC or whatever.

The Pac-12 is one of the highest paid conferences around — I don't think it is a money issue as much as it is an alliance issue ... that is, what conference(s) do you take 1st, 2nd, 3rd...

Plus, it's a travel issue — if you primarily work the Big East and ACC, it makes sense to fill in games with the Atlantic 10, America East, and CAA (esp. since it is aligned with the ACC for basketball officiating). If you take a game with the Pac-12, you can't get back to the east coast to work a game the next day. If the coaches are wanting the "heavy hitters" then that's who we are talking about — guys that are working pretty much every day.

When I was talking about money I was not talking about pay per game. I mean pay per time and energy. Going out west for officials in the Midwest would likely not make them able to work other games as easily.

Peace