Timeout Dead Ball when..........
 

If an official (improperly) grants a timeout request while a successful try is in flight, does the basket count?

Why wouldn't you count the basket?

5-8-3: Timeout occurs when an official grants a timeout request.



And this is not one of the exceptions.

Interesting...I'll have to find my books, but I would still count the basket.

Here's why it should count...
 

NFHS Rule 6-7-5

ART. 5
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
An official's whistle is blown (see exceptions a and b below).

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.

According to most, the whistle is not what causes the ball to be dead on a timeout request. If an airborne player makes a request and lands out of bounds before the whistle, does he get the timeout?

I have said before that an editorial revision is needed here. This thread was to help make that case.

Let's Get Ready To Rumble ...
 

I absolutely love this question.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Sb-nJlHa5o...viePopcorn.jpg

The airborne player question has been discussed at length, and pretty much everybody agrees that you grant the timeout, even though the wording of the rule may not support this.

jar, if you are proposing that the ball is immediately dead on this play then you should have also brought up that you were resuming play with an AP throw in.

Why?

Because you said the play became dead while there was no team control. If you are going to argue rules then argue all the applicable rules.

And in NCAA granting a time out when a team is not in control is an inadvertent whistle. An IW during a successful try does not negate the try.

Wasn't talking about NCAA. NFHS has no such rule. (does it?) It does state that once a timeout is granted, correctly or not, it cannot be revoked. What it doesn't say is when the ball becomes dead.

You still haven't addressed the status of the ball. Why WOULDN'T your ruling lead to an AP throw in?

Okay, I missed the point. Even though this wasn't an inadvertent whistle, if the ball became dead with no team control, it would be an AP situation. One more reason why this matter needs attention.

Over-thinking is what leads officials to go the arrow when they shouldn't, or to shoot four free throws on a technical foul because they're in the bonus, or all sorts of other silly things.

The rule on when the ball becomes dead is easy. If the whistle blows when a try is in flight, there's no rule that makes the ball dead before it goes through the basket.

PC foul?

Not at all related to your OP, but sure, that would be the lone exception (except for events that occur before the release for which the whistle occurs after the release).

And in all of these, the whistle is not what makes the ball dead. So, in the OP, what do you do?

NFHS Rule 5-8-1

Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official:

Signals:
a. A foul.
b. A held ball.
c. A violation.
d. A time-out.


NFHS Officials' Manual

2.4.4 Time-outs:
B. Reporting procedures:
1. Sound the whistle while giving the clock-stopping signal

We're supposed to do both - blow our whistle and signal - when granting a time out. The whistle, according to rule 6-7-5, causes the ball to become dead other than in the exceptions laid out in Rule 6-7. One of those exceptions is when a try is in flight.

So is the whistle the only thing that causes the ball to become dead when a timeout is granted? Not according to most people. Airborne player requests a timeout, then lands out of bounds before the whistle. Do you grant the timeout or is it an OOB violation?

IMO, a valid TO request makes the ball dead as soon as it's recognized as valid. If the whistle doesn't come until after the request would otherwise be invalid (try in flight, or a turnover, or the new offense gets the ball at their disposal for the throw in), we make it retroactive. If the whistle comes after a violation (airborne player or 5/10 second count) we make it retroactive. Yet we never go back and fix the clock, so yes, it's a bit inconsistent.

Your OP isn't that difficult, though, as the rule is pretty clear that the ball doesn't become on any whistle for action that occurs during a try for goal.

Or 3 violations: free throw, swinging elbows, and running OOB. Of course, only one of those is a realistic scenario.

I do....grant the timeout. He said it in time, I heard him say it in time, he gets it.

In the normal situation, the whistle and the beginning of the timeout are treated as happening simultaneously even if in practice, they're just a bit a part.

I agree this is the logical way to do it. The only way it would seem wrong is if the shot is an airball which lands right in the lap of the defense, and the AP favors the offense. I have no problem with things that seem wrong, there are others, but it's nice when these things are documented.

Besides, look at it this way: Even if it wasn't specifically covered in the rule book we have NFHS Rule 2-3 (The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules).

If we had to invoke that in the OP, are we really going to disallow a FG on a try released prior to a whistle we shouldn't have blown in the first place?