travel violations
 

had an interesting discussion about traveling in AAU games this weekend with one set of refs. one team was continually establishing a pivot foot doing multiple jab steps then starting their drives off in the other direction with the pivot foot leaving the flloor before letting go the ball. After what seemed like the 20th such play and being that AAU you practically sit on the floor in most of these areanas I asked the ref as he was running by why it wasnt a travel. I coach, but not this team, so I am used to talking with refs and trying to understand the rules better, but i was given a snide remark from the ref, which is not unusual given the amount of grief i know they get. A bit later in the game a kid was setting up down low on two feet so no pivot established. he jumped off both feet in a whirl move turned the corner for a layup and again said something to the ref as he went by about use of the pivot feet and got another nasty remark about not knowing the rules.

after the game being a bit put off by the ref's tone went over discuss the plays with them to see if i was interpreting them incorrectly. was told by both ref's I didn't know what i was talking about and they called the tournament director who i had a nice conversation with and explained what I had seen. they wanted me tossed, but as i wasn't coaching this weekend just observing the director agreed with what i was saying and was going to have a conversation with the ref's after the following game. not sure how it turned out as i had to leave soon after. but still made for a fun few moments.

in any case arent both of these clear travels ?

Lifting you pivot foot prior to releasing the ball for a dribble is travelling.

Your post play description was too vague.

Whether the calls were missed or not, as a fan, you shouldn't be engaging officials during games. And when a game is over you shouldn't be addressing officials period, as a fan or coach.

I'm going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt, BNR. He appears to be looking to learn, not be a smart-ass.

I agree, though, the second description is too vague. "He jumped off both feet in a whirl move..." then what?

+1 +1 +1. Post on this forum to get clarification, never engage officials during or after a game.

a player with both feet on the floor jumps off both feet and whirls to the basket around the defender and then dribbles before coming back to the floor.

so when do you address officials to have discussions about plays? its not like there is a place to have the discussion about rules with any officials you will ever see again.

as a coach there is nothing worse than watching rules mistakes with ref/umpires never get corrected. In a local league you have a small chance of getting local coordinator to have a discussion . no chance in AAU type settings where most teams never go back.

If you are at a game and watch a rule get blown do you choose to say nothing or inquire after the game?

I ask on these boards to get clarity. how do refs fix their mistakes if noone every asks them? you can ask in a friendly tone , shouldnt the refs want to get better as well? I have had some great conversations with refs/umpires about rules over the years during and after games. Had some even say thanks for reminding them when the mess up a call. it doesnt have to by a non-civil conversation.

I'm guessing if they wanted you tossed you weren't politely inquiring why that wasn't a travel. If you seriously want to have a conversation with the refs, approach them in between games and say 'hey guys, help me out here, I have a question for you'.

Better yet, take some video and post it here ;)

99% of the time, fans who "ask questions" as you did from the front row aren't really asking to learn. You might be the exception, but you're going to be treated like the 99%.

thats exactly what i did. i waited until game over, they were on break. the two teams had left. my words were something like. Can I ask you for clarification on what a travel is with the pivot foot. I got the look that you get from someone who thinks they know more than you, but they said sure. I showed them the footwork i was asking about , they agreed it was a travel. one ref left to get the official and the other gave some snotty attitude and several snide remarks.

I have more connections to umpires than basketball

My only remarks during the actual game were while ref was about a foot away during a break "Blue thats a travel he already established a pivot foot".

hey its AAU there are hundreds a parents screaming about most every call and usually because one team is playing big city/street g-town type ball and the other is playing small town less aggressive and getting blown away.

but refs dont have to be rude to make up for the crowd?

1. If you're making enough of a nuisance to get my attention in an AAU game, you risk getting tossed.
2. A site director who refused to toss you for any reason wouldn't be getting officials from my association for long. Especially if his reason is, "the fan had a point." In this case, I'm probably tossing you for approaching me after the game combined with making a nuisance of yourself during the game.
3. If the first thing I hear is a polite approach between games, I'll engage. I'll tell you what I saw, but I'm not getting into a discussion, though. I'll tell you what I saw and what the rule is, but that's all.
4. Your description is of traveling, but the refs may have seen it differently.

Is the lack of discussion just because there is so much negativity at these events? I mean the amount of screaming at the refs amazes me at these things. Every call seems to get a yell. I tend to only question

AAU vs HS are called in a totally different way from my discussions with ref's who are actually friendly. Rules violations are not to be called. rough play is allowed and only marginally dangerous fouls will be called because the schedule must be kept. I have been flat told out by ref's there will be home cooking bias against out of town teams. Now in HS I think its more caused by crowd energy than any real bias but in AAU that seems to much more prevalent.

when you see the same violation 20-30 times in a game you do have to wonder why its never called.

I have done a coached of games. never had a T, dont scream or swear and I have refs who I have gotten to know pretty well and have great discussions with at these events who dont do any of our local games.

Potato / po-tah-to

And, if these refs had been some you "knew" then you'd more likely get an explanation (they saw something different; you are right but there was no advantage gained so they didn't call it at this level, ...)

But, when they don't know you, you start out by "questioning" from the stands and then approach them after the game, you've used up all your benefit of the doubt (which, frankly, starts at about zero for "strangers in the stands" at these types of events).

I don't think he's being a smart-a$$ at all, he has legitimate questions. But my opinion about engaging officials applies to all.

Nice or not, I don't want fans trying to engage me about plays while I'm officiating. I when I leave the court I don't anybody, fan/player/coach, approaching me about a game I officiated.

+1000

Peace

I officiate at a very busy AAU facility, the Boo Williams Sportsplex. They have a person in place to handle officiating questions/problems (he also happens to be the national head of AAU officiating) plus the group that does the bulk of the assigning usually has someone there.

I'm not interested in any conversations with fans about officiating at the game site b/c most of them don't go well. So I eliminate all the headaches with the trade-off being I might miss out on an ocassional pleasant conversation.

I have fellow officials and observers to let me know if they've seen something I might need to address. Plus I have coaches during the game who make sure to let me know if I've might have missed something.

Ex. Act. Ly.

I wish the places I have seen AAU games actually had someone watching the games. There is a reason so many college coaches are pushing for changes in how games are officiated , when coaches like Patino come out and say commit 10 fouls because only 2 will be called there is something wrong with the game. AUU is worse because some teams have 6-7 players and others having 10-12 they just cant play that style and survive.

I have never been an AAU game where anyone was over seeing any of the officiating going on. I have been at many college/HS events where was over site. much easier to be a baseball ump with 5-6 plays a game that require some thought as opposed to basketball that has multiple events on one trip down court.

Don't read too much into it. That guy that BNR is talking about is mainly there as a buffer, someone to let people vent. 99% of what he's told gets put into the round file.

The complaints you had would have been filed that way, IMO.

The only people I'll listen to about my officiating would never be making comments during the game like that.

Some officials just refuse to call a travel unless it is so grossly obvious that it looks like a running play in football.

As for rough play, unfortunately, you get refs of the mentality that they just want to cash a check and get home. Their games turn into a brawl and they blame it on the players/coaches. It isn't about keeping it on schedule, it is about being lazy. If the directors want proper games and are worried about schedule, they'll schedule differently or change the length of the games if they are getting behind.

Home cooking...not in any game I'm on. I don't care where a team is from, I only see plays. But, it could happen.

I get the same sense. many are at the AUU events to make the $3-400 and go home. I have seen some take the time to explain to kids what they are doing wrong and thats great to see. These things should be about making kids better since almost none of them will go anywhere after high school . So much of it is just about making money now its sad.

That's really the coaches' and parents' job, especially if we're talking about AAU competition.

I'm leaving my wife and my own kids at home to go officiate for a reason, and if I'm not in camp, it is #1 about making $$$. Once I'm on the court the players and coaches are going to get the best that I can give. But you will never, ever hear me say "I'm doing it for the kids".

I may do a specific event pro bono (as I did for the local Air Force base recently) but I did not get into officiate "for the kids". I got into it to may myself some $$$.

I'm with BNR, I'm not there to teach the kids. I'm there to provide a venue for coaches to do that. Younger levels, I might offer a few things during a game, but for the most part, I'm not coaching.

If I wanted to coach, I'd coach.

And frankly, Camron didn't note it, but if you wanted higher quality officiating, you'd have to pay more for it. With what AAU refs typically get paid, they have to do more games to make it worth their time and travel. Pay them more, and you'll get higher quality officials working fewer games each.

With what I get paid for summer ball, I'm just not in the mood to put up with much from fans or even coaches, frankly. It's not that I'm going to call a technical for conduct I'd put up with in high school; I'm just going to deal with it less patiently. I'm less inclined to warn coaches for borderline behavior. I'd rather spend my energy watching the players.

And fans in a 6th grade game are going to get less rope than they would in a high school game.

I would respectfully disagree here. In game, or loudly in public I totally agree, but if someone wants to approach me politely and quietly after a game because they are trying to understand a rule, I think that's great. Too many fans/coaches think they know the rules and make no effort to correctly understand them. To dismiss those who do want to correctly understand them, in my opinion, does a disservice to other officials by fueling the stereotype that officials are arrogant and full of themselves.

My response to a spectator with a legitimate question after the game would be similar to my response to a coach during the game - short and polite. For example, "I don't remember that play in particular, but if it happened as you describe it, you would be correct". Or "If it happened like that, you would be correct, but I saw the play differently."

The problem is one of hope vs. experience. As Bob noted, 99% of the time, the intent isn't to learn but to berate (even subtly). To avoid the 99%, we lose out on the 1%. I'm ok with that.

I've been known to engage some fans, but my radar is up, and I wouldn't recommend it to officials without significant experience reading fans.

I'm on my own time after the game is over. As I stated in another post, the preponderance of these converstations are not pleasant. And since I'm on my own time I choose not to engage in these conversations. Adam puts it perfectly:

A fan is more likely to get a basketball conversation out of me if they happen upon me at a sports bar or restaurant.

Well then you have not been paying attention or you were not aware that there was someone over officiating. For one many officiating camps are run with AAU games, so there obviously are evaluators and a camp director for that particular camp or tournament. Then again the officials in many of those situations are not necessarily new or inexperienced, they are just there to prove they can work a certain level. And every AAU Tournament I have worked has someone that assigned them and usually that is someone that has an officiating background. Of course things could be differnet in different parts of the country.

Most of the time when there is an AAU Tournament it is usually assigned with whomever they can get to work the games. And in my experience many experienced or top officials will not waste their time with AAU for the very reason you came here. Paying them $25 a game for the headache is not worth it. And after a couple of weeks, it certainly is not worth it to me anymore.

Peace

Wow!

I don't participate in many conversations any more, but I like reading what everyone has to say.

Adam, you seem knowledgeable and reasonable most of the time, maybe I am not reading you correctly.

IF the OP made the comment in the way he actually stated during the game, it is on the official to stay professional and not engage fans. Just because someone makes a comment or asks a question does not mean that an official needs to pay attention to it. I would hardly call the initial comment as a nuisance.

Even in the AAU setting, just how are you going to eject someone without the backing of the gym supervisor. It is rare that these individuals will eject unless vulgar or confrontational in nature.

While I don't see a problem with trying to educate someone, once you open the door for a conversation, be professional. If a person does not want to accept your explanation, just end the conversation and move away. There are enough bad examples out there, don't become another one.

Lastly, you never know who you are talking to, what their intentions are by starting a conversation, they might even have someone filming you for their youtube page.

Just out of curiousity ... do you do your regular job for the money? Or do you do it for the enjoyment of co-workers? Do you happily and regularly invite people to watch you work and have them yell at how bad you're doing? Do you invite people you don't work with to approach you either while your working or at the end of the day, and ask you why you did your job the way you did it?

Frankly, I'm stunned at your attitude in this thread. I invite you to buy some equipment and attend some clinics - and spend 30-40 hours a year without pay for the privilege of working, and THEN come here and tell us we should allow Joe Random Fan to come up to us between games.

I think you've missed the point entirely... your first comment is EXACTLY right... if the OP really did just make a comment, the official's not going to hear it. Nor the 2nd or the 3rd. Heck, often we can barely hear the coaches, much less an individual voice in the crowd... If "some fan" has somehow gotten on the official's radar, then clearly he's done far more than just making a comment.

The big problem with this is that you don't ever really know if the spectator has "a legitimate question" and is trying to learn ... or if he is going to blow up when you tell him you saw it differently. (Especially a fan, as in the OP, who has already been so vocal that I had to notice him during the game!)

In the OP, the official heard the comment and replied in a negative way.

Last year, while in a camp, we had a coach who was very chatty and being a PIA. At halftime we found out from our observers that the coach was miked up for some kind of endeavor.

Exactly... if the official heard it and replied in a negative way, then it was not just a comment.

In my Jim Rome voice: "Allegedly"

You have lost your mind. No one worth any salt is paying attention to some fan. And certainly not paying attention to any fan in the stands. Fans do not hire us, supervise us or will have much say in the future.

Peace

Fair enough. I guess I see it a little differently. Our association requires us to show up dressed appropriately (no jeans, tie or jacket, etc), report in, officiate, change and leave dressed appropriately. I guess I'm thinking of the entire time "on campus/school grounds" as work time. But I totally understand not wanting to talk work/officiating after work/officiating has ended.

The games I work that require a dress code we never have to deal with fans b/c game admin ensures we have a clear path to the dressing room.

The games that don't require a dress code...see previous posts :)

We're not talking about school games here. AAU/summer ball is typically worked differently. You don't get a dressing room, so you show up ready to go. I typically put on my stripes and change shoes at the table.

During the school season, you have game admin who, for part of their job, ensure fans don't disrupt you in any way. They are experienced at it (typically) and accountable to the conference and/or state if they fail. One reason to be even more cautious in AAU is that the game managers are either less experienced or less accountable (or both).

High school ball and AAU or tourney ball are two completely different things. But at HS, the OP is rendered moot - there's nearly zero chance of a fan coming down from the stands and trying to discuss a call with the officials between games.

Possible, and quite possibly because I wasn't clear. :D

Lots of "ifs" here, to be honest. Sure, it's on us to be professional, but the OP was clearly engaging with the intent of getting the officials' attention. Not just comments, but he wanted to make his point. Chances are there's more to the story.

If I've had a fan rise to the level of getting my attention during the game with comments such as "that was a travel because...." (as opposed to, for example, "why wasn't that a travel"), and then proceeds to come talk to me after the game to tell me which calls I missed, it's very possible I'd request to have him removed. (I wouldn't do that in front of him, I'd simply talk to the site manager.)

If the site manager didn't comply, the assigner would be finding out before I even drove out of the parking lot. If the problem wasn't resolved to my satisfaction, I'd simply refuse to work those games. For the pay involved, it's not worth the headaches.

Agreed. If you do say anything, it should be polite. I should have noted earlier that the "snide remarks" mentioned by the OP should be avoided.

If fans are making comments that indicate a lack of rules knowledge, I'll laugh about it with my partner when we're out of earshot. Or, I'll just stand there and laugh, out loud, while watching the playing action. Or both. :)

All the more reason not to engage. At all. Frankly, my standard response is to politely direct them to the site manager.

Not sure what this has to do with AAU games.

Can I Be More Clear ???
 

Travel. All day long. All night long. Travel in a boys high school varsity game. Travel in a Catholic middle school girls "junior varsity" game. Travel in a gymnasium. Travel on an outdoor playground court. Travel in my sleep. Travel when I'm awake. Travel in my dreams. If it happens in my primary coverage area, it's a travel 100% of the time, all the time, every time.

Agreed.

If it happened as the OP said.

Perhaps Ncaa Traveling (Non) Calls Trickling Down?

Perhaps a lot of AAU officials aren't well versed on travelling rules.

Or maybe they have been reading too many of JRut's posts!

:confused: I had never noticed JRut was an advocate of ignoring traveling...

He's not.

Kinda what I thought, that's why the comment lost me.

Actually I just think that traveling is the most inconsistent call in the entire game of basketball. And unlike some here I feel that HS officials do just as bad of a job calling traveling properly as we see at other levels. HS officials IMO just call many phantom calls than they do at the other levels, but still incorrectly apply the rule.

Peace

No, he just defines holding the ball in a way that makes it nearly impossible....and completely the opposite of how he defines holding the ball when it comes to deciding if a player is shooting or not.

Travelin' Man (Ricky Nelson) ...
 

Agree. Toughest call for me, and I've been doing this for thirty-two years. It's not block/charge, foul/incidental contact, or coach-official interactions, it's traveling. Especially at the end of a dribble, with all the various possibilities, jump stops, spin moves, fakes and pivots, gathering the ball for a try, step throughs, over unders, etc.