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-   -   Inadvertent Whistle? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/94807-inadvertent-whistle.html)

Nevadaref Tue Apr 16, 2013 07:17am

What if two teammates crash into each other and the official whistles and signals a foul only to then realize that no opposing player was involved?

HokiePaul Tue Apr 16, 2013 07:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 891086)
What if two teammates crash into each other and the official whistles and signals a foul only to then realize that no opposing player was involved?

I would absolutely reverse that call ... so I guess there are examples.

bainsey Tue Apr 16, 2013 07:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 891081)
That coach was not an official any amount of years if he's trying to pass along that line of bulls**t.

Up until 5-6 years ago in NFHS, an inadventent whistle resulted in the possession arrow. Perhaps the coach officiated in a time when this was the case (and he had the arrow).

bob jenkins Tue Apr 16, 2013 07:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 891092)
Up until 5-6 years ago in NFHS, an inadventent whistle resulted in the possession arrow.

I don't recall that being the rule (assuming there is TC at the time of the IW)

Camron Rust Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 891092)
Up until 5-6 years ago in NFHS, an inadventent whistle resulted in the possession arrow. Perhaps the coach officiated in a time when this was the case (and he had the arrow).

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 891094)
I don't recall that being the rule (assuming there is TC at the time of the IW)

Nor do I????

Camron Rust Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 891083)
This makes me wonder how certain violations can be changed after signaled, but others can't.

Basically, anything can be changed after it is signaled unless it is conflicting judgements of the very same act (was it a block or a charge). Everything else is open for discussions. It may not be advisable, but it is at least an option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 891083)

It is generally accepted that a mistake (official blows whistle using the wrong line) can be taken back as an inadvertant whistle.

Not only is it accepted but it is actually the rule. What matters is not what the official thought happened but what actually happened. If they blow the whistle and there was no violation, even if they thought there was one to start with, the rules grant the ball back to the team in control or the team that is still due a throwin/FT for a prior infarction....or a AP arrow if none of the above apply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 891083)
An official can reverse an out of bounds violation call (based on information from his/her partner).

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 891083)
Can an official reverse a travel or double dribble call ... I've never seen it done. Say the Trail is in the back court on a fast break and calls what appears from his view to be a double dribble. The Center/Lead who is in front of the play has a better view is 100% certain (perhaps along with the coaches) that the play was not a double dribble. Can the Center/Lead approach his/her partner and offer information that would allow them to change the call?

They could. I did it once. I was trail, partner lead at the baseline. He called a double dribble on a player at half court. The defender had knocked the ball out of the opponents hands after the dribble had ended, creating a new opportunity for a dribble which the offensive play made use of. He didn't see the defender knock the ball away and only knew that the offensive player had already dribbled. He refused to change the call and we talked about it after the game.
Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 891083)
And are there any fouls where the call can be changed after the fact? I know you can upgrade to a Intentional/Flagrant after discussing with partners, but I can't think of any situation where you could reverse a foul call to a no call based on additional information.

The foul call could be overturned if, by rule, it was at a time when a foul could not occur such as a common foul after the ball is dead.

Adam Tue Apr 16, 2013 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 891083)
This makes me wonder how certain violations can be changed after signaled, but others can't.

It is generally accepted that a mistake (official blows whistle using the wrong line) can be taken back as an inadvertant whistle.

An official can reverse an out of bounds violation call (based on information from his/her partner).

Can an official reverse a travel or double dribble call ... I've never seen it done. Say the Trail is in the back court on a fast break and calls what appears from his view to be a double dribble. The Center/Lead who is in front of the play has a better view is 100% certain (perhaps along with the coaches) that the play was not a double dribble. Can the Center/Lead approach his/her partner and offer information that would allow them to change the call?

And are there any fouls where the call can be changed after the fact? I know you can upgrade to a Intentional/Flagrant after discussing with partners, but I can't think of any situation where you could reverse a foul call to a no call based on additional information.

Had one last night in a spring JV girls game: Double whistle, partner is signaling a travel while I have a fist up. We went with the foul as it happened first.

I've also had a partner whistle and signal a BC violation on a throwin play where the receiving player jumped from the FC to the BC and caught the ball in the air. As soon as he whistled it, he called me over to talk himself out of the call. He reversed it.

Adam Tue Apr 16, 2013 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 891086)
What if two teammates crash into each other and the official whistles and signals a foul only to then realize that no opposing player was involved?

I've had two partners do this.

BillyMac Tue Apr 16, 2013 04:33pm

And Boy, Did I Feel Foolish ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 891086)
What if two teammates crash into each other and the official whistles and signals a foul only to then realize that no opposing player was involved?

Been there. Done that. I believe twice in thirty-two years.

bainsey Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 891094)
I don't recall that being the rule (assuming there is TC at the time of the IW)

This and Cam's comment gave me pause. I believe I was thinking of double fouls, not inadvertent whistles. Sorry, my mistake.

just another ref Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:57pm

In broader terms, a wise man changes his mind. You anticipate something, but something else happens, but you accidentally make the signal for what was anticipated. Tap yourself on the chest if you want, then make the correct signal. Or, if your partner made a call at the same time, you can drop you signal and walk away. It happens. There is nothing in any book which prevents it.

BillyMac Wed Apr 17, 2013 06:24am

The Infamous Blarge Rears Its Angry Head ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 891211)
In broader terms ... If your partner made a call at the same time, you can drop you signal and walk away. There is nothing in any book which prevents it.

See 4.19.8 Situation C (Especially when one, or both, coaches see both signals). You're probably not going to be able to walk away, by rule, from this one.

Adam Wed Apr 17, 2013 08:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 891215)
See 4.19.8 Situation C (Especially when one, or both, coaches see both signals). You're probably not going to be able to walk away, by rule, from this one.

It doesn't mean the same thing in his book as it does in everyone else's.

just another ref Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 891215)
See 4.19.8 Situation C (Especially when one, or both, coaches see both signals). You're probably not going to be able to walk away, by rule, from this one.

The case doesn't mention
signals but if it did what the coach saw or didn't see would not affect the call.

BillyMac Thu Apr 18, 2013 05:51am

Smoke Signals ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 891312)
The case doesn't mention
signals.

"One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1"

Without signals, just exactly how are two officials going to "call" two different fouls? Without signals it would just be a race to the table to see who gets there, and makes the "call", first.


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