And such defender was left defending a player who got to start is move by traveling. It is a double whammy against a defender who is forced to defend an illegal move and then gets a foul when trying to keep up with the opponent who got an illegal head start.

No it doesn't. Until you've caught the ball, you are not shooting. That much is certain. I don't think I have ever seen a player sent to the line for shots when they got fouled before they catch the ball.

You might as well argue that the last 3 dribbles before a shot are part of someone's habitual motion.

OK, whatever you say. There was a S & I picture that once showed it did. ;)

Peace

You seem to be confusing the Sunday comics with the S&I picture.


Right there you go....times 3.
1. You have to have the ball before you can be shooting it.
2. You have to be trying to throw it (and can't through something you don't have).
3. And the habitual motion "precedes the release"....meaning it occurs while the player is holding the ball.

Anything else (your definition of gather) is fiction.

Gathering the ball is not "throwing movement". Almost ready to start throwing it to the basket is not enough. The rules require that they have actually started the throwing movement when they get fouled.

What does exactly do you think "Has the ball" mean?

If you are dribbling you have the ball right? It also says, "In the official's judgment" right?

Also the usage of the term "gather" is philosophy based as well. It is a way to decide when someone is doing something with the ball and to be consistent. Because even in the definition you mentioned, there was a picture in the S & I book that showed a sequence of when to call a shooting foul. Now that is for interpretations to be shown with pictures. And I have always considered the gather and was taught by others that when a player stops their dribble, they are gathering the ball. He stopped his dribble in this play and what the hell else is he planning on doing with the ball?

Peace

No shot. I have to say, I have never heard the opinion that the shooting motion begins prior to having the ball. That is ludicrous.

Pass to an open teammate. He only started his motion after the whistle.

That is great but he never passed to a teammate. He shot the darn ball. He was making a move to the basket as well. That is fine if you do not agree, but that does not mean we all come from the same place on this issue. I am fine with that. But as many times as I see official not award shots and the NCAA has addressed this in their videos and has been addressed with high school officials as well with other training tapes. But then again you have never heard this before, so not sure what else to tell you.

Peace

He did shoot the ball. But not before the foul which came before his shooting motion began. He was not making a move towards the basket. He was making a move towards the opposite sideline, and never got towards the basket because he got bumped prior to any shot.

And the rule says, "...and in the official’s judgment is...." too. So we will just have to disagree when that starts if you want to. And you know, we will all be ultimately judged on that most important element, our judgment.

Peace

And yet the officials judgement is supposed to be based on rules, not some nebulous undefined term that individual officials apply and argue the meaning of inconsistently from situation to situation.

So, let me see if I've got this straight. When they have stopped their dribble for a shot they've gathered but if it is for a travel they've not gathered?

Are you saying there a gap where they not in player control between the dribble and the holding the ball?

Camron,

You make it sound like the only part of the rule is important is the one you quoted. All the rule says is that the official has to use their judgment to decide when they shoot the ball. Unless the rule reads otherwise, nothing in the rule actually says when that time starts specifically or defines a demarcation line when that takes place. It does not say that a shot begins with two hands, one hand or after the ball hit the floor on a dribble. It says in a very vague and undefined way by stating that the official has to use their judgment. What people have come up with is the usage of "gather" which actually suggests that a dribble had to end or a move to the basket. Since most players usually shoot after they have somehow dribbled or they make some motion of shooting from still being on the floor, I think that is where it basically has come from. Now you do not have to accept that explanation, but there has been a POE on this where people use often the "on the floor" explanation for not every awarding a shot when a player is fouled. And in this play the Duke player never dribbled again and was making an obvious move to the basket. He made several moves like that in the tournament and was not passing the ball from the middle of the lane when he is the tallest player in the entire game. If that is not shooting the ball, I do not know what is. Now I can go along if you want to play semantics about if that is taking place, but he is only bumped back after he has, gathered, picked up the ball or stopped dribbling. Now in my judgment that is enough, but it can be different in your feeling and the official in question.

I guess you have the right to question a travel call, but I do not have the right to question a rule application that by all means looked like continuous motion.

Peace

And for the record this in and NCAA game and that is not how the rule reads at that level. So I really do not know why we are discussing the HS rule for a HS game honestly. ;)

Peace