Duke-Louisville foul no continuation clip (Dieng/Plumlee 2nd half)
 

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Travel first.

Bump by B was after the gather. Count it.

Travel at the start.

At the time of the foul, it was not clear where he was trying to go with it. He was moving away from the basket and wasn't yet turning towards it. It was close and I could go either way on that one.

This is a classic example of the offensive team being penalized by not having the shot count/free throws awarded.

The offensive player gather the ball that preceding his normal shooting motion prior to being fouled.

I have a feeling this play will be in next years' Pre-Season Officiation Video as an example of incorrectly canceling a shot.

Watching it live, I wasn't even sure if he'd gathered it yet. After watching it again, I agree with you. He may have gathered, but it wasn't clear what he was doing.

I probably would have counted it, but I can understand either way.

Once again... gather does not equal shooting. It might, usually when going towards the basket, but it isn't automatic. In this case, he was going away from the basket.

So he was fouled during the gather, which precedes the normal shooting motion. Which means he hadn't started his normal shooting motion, which means no shot.

Full disclosure. I haven't watched the clip yet. Work, no access to videos.

I clearly have a shooting foul.

Peace

What caused him to change the direction in which he was moving? (Answer: the foul by the defender).

Once the offensive player starts his habitual shooting motion, nowhere in the rule does it specify a direction or location on the court that the offensive player must be in to be considered "in the act of shooting" (see the 3 shots awarded the Charlotte player vs Richmond during the A10 Conference Tournament).

It actually starts before the gather, but then again I would have awarded shots.

Peace

1. If one of the admins could change the title of the thread. I have the foul on Smith when it was actually Dieng. Thanks.

2. Regardless of who it was on I have continuation here. He had ended his dribble and was into the habitual motion when Dieng bumped him.

He was going away before the foul....so that doesn't help your point much.

All good, if he had actually started any motion looking like a shot prior to the foul. He hadn't. At the time he was fouled, he could have been shooting, passing, or stopping. The shot looked like an afterthought that he put up after getting fouled. If he was going to the basket when he got fouled, I'm using my brain to decide what he was doing at the time of the foul and will inclined to call that a shooting, but not when he is going away from the basket and only turns toward the basket after getting fouled.

Shooting starts before you catch the ball? That is a new one.

It is oddly inconsistent how you argue for the latest possible gather when the topic is traveling but you have an extremely early gather when it comes to a shot. I'd hate to see you sort out the play when a player is fouled just after traveling in the midst of a gather. You'd rule it a shooting foul because he gathered and no travel because he hadn't gathered and everyone would be scratching their heads. You can't have it both ways and be right.

I think he had ended his dribble, but that doesn't mean he had started his habitual motion. The more I see this, the more I agree with Camron.

The habitual motion does.

Peace

And such defender was left defending a player who got to start is move by traveling. It is a double whammy against a defender who is forced to defend an illegal move and then gets a foul when trying to keep up with the opponent who got an illegal head start.

No it doesn't. Until you've caught the ball, you are not shooting. That much is certain. I don't think I have ever seen a player sent to the line for shots when they got fouled before they catch the ball.

You might as well argue that the last 3 dribbles before a shot are part of someone's habitual motion.

OK, whatever you say. There was a S & I picture that once showed it did. ;)

Peace

You seem to be confusing the Sunday comics with the S&I picture.


Right there you go....times 3.
1. You have to have the ball before you can be shooting it.
2. You have to be trying to throw it (and can't through something you don't have).
3. And the habitual motion "precedes the release"....meaning it occurs while the player is holding the ball.

Anything else (your definition of gather) is fiction.

Gathering the ball is not "throwing movement". Almost ready to start throwing it to the basket is not enough. The rules require that they have actually started the throwing movement when they get fouled.

What does exactly do you think "Has the ball" mean?

If you are dribbling you have the ball right? It also says, "In the official's judgment" right?

Also the usage of the term "gather" is philosophy based as well. It is a way to decide when someone is doing something with the ball and to be consistent. Because even in the definition you mentioned, there was a picture in the S & I book that showed a sequence of when to call a shooting foul. Now that is for interpretations to be shown with pictures. And I have always considered the gather and was taught by others that when a player stops their dribble, they are gathering the ball. He stopped his dribble in this play and what the hell else is he planning on doing with the ball?

Peace

No shot. I have to say, I have never heard the opinion that the shooting motion begins prior to having the ball. That is ludicrous.

Pass to an open teammate. He only started his motion after the whistle.

That is great but he never passed to a teammate. He shot the darn ball. He was making a move to the basket as well. That is fine if you do not agree, but that does not mean we all come from the same place on this issue. I am fine with that. But as many times as I see official not award shots and the NCAA has addressed this in their videos and has been addressed with high school officials as well with other training tapes. But then again you have never heard this before, so not sure what else to tell you.

Peace

He did shoot the ball. But not before the foul which came before his shooting motion began. He was not making a move towards the basket. He was making a move towards the opposite sideline, and never got towards the basket because he got bumped prior to any shot.

And the rule says, "...and in the official’s judgment is...." too. So we will just have to disagree when that starts if you want to. And you know, we will all be ultimately judged on that most important element, our judgment.

Peace

And yet the officials judgement is supposed to be based on rules, not some nebulous undefined term that individual officials apply and argue the meaning of inconsistently from situation to situation.

So, let me see if I've got this straight. When they have stopped their dribble for a shot they've gathered but if it is for a travel they've not gathered?

Are you saying there a gap where they not in player control between the dribble and the holding the ball?

Camron,

You make it sound like the only part of the rule is important is the one you quoted. All the rule says is that the official has to use their judgment to decide when they shoot the ball. Unless the rule reads otherwise, nothing in the rule actually says when that time starts specifically or defines a demarcation line when that takes place. It does not say that a shot begins with two hands, one hand or after the ball hit the floor on a dribble. It says in a very vague and undefined way by stating that the official has to use their judgment. What people have come up with is the usage of "gather" which actually suggests that a dribble had to end or a move to the basket. Since most players usually shoot after they have somehow dribbled or they make some motion of shooting from still being on the floor, I think that is where it basically has come from. Now you do not have to accept that explanation, but there has been a POE on this where people use often the "on the floor" explanation for not every awarding a shot when a player is fouled. And in this play the Duke player never dribbled again and was making an obvious move to the basket. He made several moves like that in the tournament and was not passing the ball from the middle of the lane when he is the tallest player in the entire game. If that is not shooting the ball, I do not know what is. Now I can go along if you want to play semantics about if that is taking place, but he is only bumped back after he has, gathered, picked up the ball or stopped dribbling. Now in my judgment that is enough, but it can be different in your feeling and the official in question.

I guess you have the right to question a travel call, but I do not have the right to question a rule application that by all means looked like continuous motion.

Peace

And for the record this in and NCAA game and that is not how the rule reads at that level. So I really do not know why we are discussing the HS rule for a HS game honestly. ;)

Peace