Illegal Screen/Technical video--your thoughts?
 

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My first try at this...hope it works. I would like your thoughts on both the illegal screen call and the subsequent technical foul on the Blue HC. Not that it matters either way, but I just want to clarify I was not part of the crew. Thanks!

You have the video listed as "Private". You need to go into the publishing settings for the video, and change it to either "Public" or "Unlisted". Public means the video can be searched for and found, unlisted requires you to share the link so that others can access it.

Ha, would have been too good to be true to get it right on the first try. I switched it to unlisted, so let's try it again.

Both look like pretty easy calls to me.

The illegal screen call looks fine to me. Not sure I would have called that one, but doesn't bother me that it was called. The T was an easy call, coach doesn't get to act like that.

My only issue with this situation is that both calls should have come from the C. The screen was set by a player who came from C's primary...he should have had that call. And the T was definitely the C's call. He was right there and heard and sould have seen everything the coach was saying and doing. No reason why the L had to come from clear across the court to get that one.

Easy Peasey Lemon Squeezy ...
 

1) Team control foul (illegal screen, blocking).
2) Direct technical foul (temper tantrum).

The C could have called the technical, but the coach was stomping and throwing his arms while the C had his back to him. The lead probably had a better view of it.

The trail also had a view of the coach but I like another official coming in and helping out his partner so that the trail does not have to call both the common foul and the technical foul. Good teamwork in my opinion.

Seriously?

You honestly think the C did not hear any of that? All he has to do is turn and look when he hears the coach stomping and screaming - and then take care of business. Making the L have to run halfway across the court to get this T is NOT good teamwork, imo.

C shoulda
 

Also, crew loses eyes on players when they convene to discuss.

Also...
 

... the other videos posted by that youtube user feature some serious illegal dribbling.

If this is the game I think it is, it was a Class 2A qf last Wedensday in the Minnesota state tournament and the team in Blue was trailing by 4 points at 50-46 with 1:23 left to go in the game when this call was made. Had the call on the illigeal screen gone the other way it would have not resulted in free throws thougha the team in Blue was not in the bonus yet. Taht woud ahve only been the 6th team foul. My guess is the reaction was due to the time and score. Still though coches need to keep composure in a close game like that

I would like to see other screens in that game to see if that was called consistently. I think it was kind of "weak" but I can see why it was called. It is just a tough play to call every time correctly.

I was not a fan of the "wave" being a T, but that seems to be what others expect. So if that is the standard without hearing words I guess that is OK.

Peace

It would have to be video that was shot at the game by spectators as QF games in MN are not televised anywhere OTA, cable or online

I'd also like to see how screens were called in the game and agree that this call looks somewhat weak and marginal to me.

As for the T, that seems to be much more than a simple "wave." The stomping on the court, the gestures toward the officials.....way too demonstrative and easily T worthy IMO.

And I agree with what was stated above that the C should have handled this. At the very least he should have addressed the coach. He seems to only be concerned with tossing the ball to the L who misses the ball as he TCB.

Does not make the crew look good.

I guess I have been told recently that the "wave" is so over the top that it must get a T no matter when they give one. I never used that standard but have given Ts for other things. I have been criticized for giving Ts for actual language and other behavior and suggestion of integrity, but somehow the "wave" must be penalized at all times. And yes if the coach did more I have no problem with the T anyway. The officials were there and they know what was said and done in this situation and done previously. I have a hard time trying to judge someone for what they give a T for without hearing their side of the story. This might have been the 5th time the coach did something and then was warned. I just am not a fan if the "wave" was the first time a coach reacted, but some feel that is over the top.

Peace

I hear ya. For me a simple wave off is not automatic either. I consider all of the other factors you mentioned.

Just from the video though I think the coach is way too demonstrative in his protest of the call. And that's without even hearing what was said in additon to the gestures.

To some his behavior was too demonstrative, but then again I would like to know what other actions were tolerated. These issues are often not confined to a bubble and if other actions were allowed similarity, I would probably suggest this could have been passed on. Then again, the officials were there and all we are seeing is a muted version of the play.

Peace

Would love to see the C get this screen, but I don't think it's a horrible call for T. i personally would have liked to see the T or C get the technical, though. If T isn't going to take care of it (the coach is yelling at him), the C should do it since he's practically in the coaching box. The L is the last resort, which might be why it's so delayed after the foot stomp.

I love the coach's "what was that for" look after he realizes he's earned a seat belt.

C looked like he was just going to ignore the whole thing with the coach. Maybe he'd heard so much from the guy during the game he just tuned him out? Not a great reason to miss a foot stomp but it happens.

As others have mentioned out of the context of the rest of the game its hard to judge where both the screen and the coaches actions fall. I also don't have sound (I assume that trus for everyone?) so I'm just seeing the coaches actions.

Screen: From this far away its hard to pick up anything that would have me calling that illegal. If that is an illegal screen in my neck of the woods no screens are being set in games that aren't fouls.

Coach: The jumping and stomping alone is not enough for a T. Coaches can be a demonstrative as they want, but I assume its targeted at the officials and things are being said that call their judgement into question in which case he's probablly asking for it.

I agree on the screen.

I disagree that they can be as demonstrative as they want. His foot stomp is obviously not directed at his players here, so even if nothing was said, I'd be likely to call a T.

If this is the first thing he's done or said to us all game and there's no words to go with the stomp; I might ignore it. However, he doesn't get to act like a five year old mad at his sister without risking a technical foul.

Probably his first T all year, too.

It was interesting analyzing this one without sound...especially the coaching issue. The body language and mechanics tell quite a story even without sound.

As far as the screen...I agree with those that called it marginal. I probably would have laid off. By the letter of the rule...probably a foul. A big boy varsity playoff game? I'd be inclined to "play on".

Regarding the T, it almost looks to me like the official that called it was looking for an opportunity to do so. He was the furthest away from the action and came flying across the court (emphatically) to grab it. If I had to bet, I'd say the coach had been warned or had been acting afoool for the entire game and he (calling official) had enough...foot stomp....wave...WHACK!

I still contend that if the C had turned and addressed the coaches behavior as soon as the foot stomp and first yelling, then we never get to the big wave-off and continued yelling. It sure appears that the C did not want to get involved, and the L had to TCB. Just looks ugly.

And I agree with Adam - no way does a coach get to be as demonstrative as they want to be. There are obviously times when a little more leeway might be given, but this guy went too far.

No problem with the screen call. It wasn't huge, but there were a couple of teammates trying to set bad screens prior to that and they missed. That call will help clean it up.

As far as the T goes, that's pretty easy. You let that go and you lose control of the benches. Based on some posts made to me a couple days ago, the coach needs to learn to wait until the play goes to the other end of the floor and then act like a jackass. He wont' get T'd up if he does that when we are not on his end. :D

Yeah Z, you need to put ":D" on the end of that one for sure.

Peace

good call on the illegal screen - would have like some help from the C on that, but the L saw it coming

good call for the T
again the C could have helped here.

the three officials kind of together at the bench (were they all looking the same way once?)

the C going over to make the explanation - excellent

The T is definitely a "when in Rome" thing (based only on the short clip). In mnay areas you would be expected to ignore or adress in other ways before going to the T. If you issues the T this quickly and from this far away, you'd be viewed in a negative light.

I fully understand those who would call it based on the expectations and norms in their area.

Is this pretty much everywhere? Why is this? Should a technical always be left up to the closest official?

Not in my area. Doesn't matter how far you are away when a T is deserved. In fact, a "partner protect" technical is preferred to the appearance of a personal confrontation between calling official and pissed-off coach. Around here, we emphasize that the official(s) facing the table always be scanning the benches to maintain bench control. Obviously, officials facing the benches are further away.

Sometimes the closest official is dealing with the situation and then you come in from far away and do what they should have been given a chance to do. Not to say that this specific situation applies, but you better be sure it is accepted by the people that hire you and your partner. That is why at least I would like to know the exchange before making a real judgment to the situation.

Peace

I'm not saying its the case here, as clearly even without sound its targeted at officials. I'm just trying to point out that being demonstrative alone is not enough to earn a T. If he stops his feet and waves his arm but is getting his players attention and ripping into them for going off plan, or playing undisiciplined and is directing traffic as he chews out his players to be better that can't/shouldn't be a T.

In the case of the video it was clearly linked to the call, but being a stomper/waver/wall puncher/clip board tosser etc. Isn't enough to get a T. If its not being directed at officials or accompanied by statements or actions that indicate a correlaton to the call coaches can act like children if they want.

read it in conjunction with my entire brief statement.

So where is your line? Coach slams his clipboard down on the court and that is OK with you? What if he kicks a chair over? What if he steps to the table and does a big arm sweep and sends the scorebook flying? What if he grabs a towel and starts swinging it and beating the crap out of his chair with it?

As long as you think he is just mad at his players, all those things are OK? It is a serious question...those things are really OK with you?

This is how I was trained as well. The C had his back to the coach and did not see the temper tantrum and foot stomping. The Trail had the call, the Lead saw the coach the whole way and had the T. Both calling officials then properly got away to avoid the situation escalating further and let the C offer any explaination to the coach.

I'm ok with the illegal screen there, but I think I'd have passed. As far as the "T", I don't think it was appropriate for the lead to get this. If I'm the official being yelled at, it's my judgement whether a "T" is warranted. When someone else gets it, as happened here, it makes it look to me like the official who should have called it is too chicken to do so. If the calling official don't see misbehavior, I don't have a problem with a partner picking it up. In this case, he saw what was happening and opted to pass on calling the "T".

As a few others have said, it may have been the standard expectation in that area for someone else to get the T other than the calling official. We can't really say if they handled it well or not without knowing the protocol expected in that area.

We can, however, discuss whether such a protocol is a good idea or not.

I can see both sides on that point. If the same official gets the T, he does look strong and unafraid to deal with it but it may also look like he's being a hardass. When a 2nd official comes in for the T, it may make them appear more like a team, backing each other up.

This is not unlike the expectation in many areas that the 2nd T on a coach, if they don't settle down after the first, should not come from the same official that issued the first. Many areas expect one of the partners to step of and get the 2nd one. I'm don't think it is really as important on the play at hand but the idea is similar.

Just to throw my .02 cents in;

I wouldn't call that screen. And I definitely wouldn't call it in the final two minutes of a close playoff game (as someone said was the case here). If this is in the first quarter and we are wanting to set the tone to keep screens clean, its one thing, but I don't see calling this anytime really.

On the T, coach is going ballistic and you pretty much have to call it. In this situation it sucks to have to do it, but Coachs can't get away with all that.

My question is this, how do you defend your partner when they've made what you feel is a bad/weak call? Just a simple "he had a good angle at coach"?

Agreed. I'll also add that even if the calling official is expected to have a first crack at it, it's possible the coach's behavior was such that the lead had to come in and get it. Maybe he was too chicken to call it. Maybe he was just waiting until he reported the first foul. The lead just thought he was going to pass on a foul that needed to be called. Hard to say without video, or without talking to the officials who worked this game.

In many cases where off ball situation is being called, I do not think an official or partner would see what a partner called in most situations. That being said I never explain any call my partner made when I do not see it or I did not call it. So if my partner "kicked" a call, I would let them explain it. And I would tell the coach, "Why don't you ask him what he called?" I would even say that if I saw the play in some situations. I tell this to players all the time when I did not call anything. If you explain something you did not see, then when the real explanation comes out, then you will lose credibility if you both say something different.

Peace

Make a habit of not discussing partners' calls, then it doesn't look funny when you simply say "Coach, you'll have to ask Billy about his call."

Something similar to your comment is ok, as long as your body language or tone don't give away your opinion. Keep your poker face.

I don't think "the line" can be a behaviour in these many cases as much as it is context, percieved intent, impact on the game and game area etc.

If I call a travel and the coach slams his clipboard and picks it and mutters to himself I might have something or at least be on the alert for an ABS issue. If the play is going on and his kid turns it over and he slams the clipboard jumps and starts grabbing a player of the bench barking about what he needs him to do and who he's going in for and why . .. how much of that am I even going to pay attention to or acknowledge.

If the coach is up and active all game long yelling at players, calling stuff out, being competitive/demanding and reacting visibly to each play stomping on bad play by his/her team or fist pumping and clapping/running on every shot. Then I'm not going to T him up for being passionate or emotive. Now once its directed at me, or negatively impacts the game or incites the crowd in a negative way we would have a problem.

To answer your questions:

IF a coach slams his clipboard am I ok with that. Why is the clipboard being slammed? Was it already in his hands coming out of a timeout when they break up the play and turn it over so he's tossing in disgust behind his bench. Is he slamming down in a timeout to get his player's attention? Did I just call a 50-50 that went against him and its hitting the sideline or the playing area? Did he rifle it B Knight style at a free throw shooter? Some of these are obvious t's, some might be t's, some are not even getting acknowledged by me or in my area. I can't tell you that the line is the coach slamming the clipboard cause that's not true.

What if he kicks over a chair? What if he does the ole awe shucks shuffle after his kid misses an open look and the chair accidently get knocked over? What if he's upset at a call bust a chair with his foot? What if in a timeout a hear a chair go over and know the coach is upset but i just see someone picking up a chair? The behaviour again is not the only issue on its own.

What if he's up on the table and knocks the scorebook? Well now we're being specific to being out of the box, delaying the game, and most likely intimidating minor officials. So the T and/ toss is coming.

If he grabs the towel and beats the chair? Is it ongoing? HOw would I notice unless it keeps going on or its in response to a stoppage? Does he/she appear out of control or simply ludicrous? Too many factors?

Player and coaches having emotional responses are not enough to give them a T. The nature of the reaction, the situation it happens in, and any number of contextual factors can impact it.

You've made some excellent points here and I'll agree with them. The main reason I prefer allowing the calling official to administer the "T" is that if I kick a call, I'm going to allow a coach to vent. If my partner "T"'s him, we now have double-trouble because of a call that I kicked.

Not your job to defend your partner's calls. You simply tell the coach that regardless of his opinion of a call he still has sportsmanship guildelines he has to adhere to.

"Coach, even if you think I missed that call, you will still treat my crew with respect. That is not negotiable." I don't let a coach vent just because he thinks we missed one (or even if I think we missed one). Adults know how to ask questions reasonably without "venting." Coaches in our area know that venting or gestures that the whole gym can see aren't acceptable. We cracked down on it starting 3 years ago and we just don't see it anymore. Smart guys.... they have adapted.

That is pretty much the same here, zebraman. There are acceptably behaviors from a coach...they can't kick over chairs or throw things in the classroom, so they aren't going to do it on the court either.

I agree that kicking and throwing things are unacceptable under any circumstances. I do not agree however, that we shouldn't allow a coach to vent a little when WE kick a call.

99% of the time when the coach feels the need to "vent," it's because he thinks we kicked a call. We don't let him act like an idiot when we know the call was right, but he disagrees. Why should he get to act like an idiot when we think we might have kicked one. Or worse, why should he get to act like an idiot because we think our partner kicked one?

I might be a little more open to a question on a call I know was close or may have been kicked, but his standards of behavior remain the same. He can ask a question, and maybe get away with a few more quiet words than I'd put up with otherwise, but public displays of affection are going to get shut down just as quickly as if I was 100% sure of the call.

They're adults. As zebraman and rocky noted, they're quite capable of curbing their behavior when they know it's expected.

One thing that drives me nuts is the whole "it's a tense situation" excuse.

I have no problem with the illegal screen ruling. I think the screener set his legs outside the allowable frame and there was a bit of a push there as well. Having said that, I've seen worse than that not ruled as illegal.

In any case, the coach simply doesn't get to act that way and disrespect the game and the officials. Not in a scrimmage, not in a regular season game and not in a playoff game. In my opinion officials hesitate far too often to take care of business when the coach's behavior is unacceptable. The coach is supposed to set the standard for his team. Is that the standard we want set?

That would all be great but the contact was with his torso, not his legs. It is not illegal to set up badly, it is illegal if that is where the contact takes place.

Peace

If you kick the call and you call the "T", it's your fault, not his !!! If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

In this play there was no "kicked call". There's debate on whether or not it was a good call, but that doesn't make it a "kicked call". It was a judgment call. The coach doesn't get to act a fool b/c he doesn't agree with judgment.

Says who?

I do not care how bad a call is, a coach is only going to go so far without penalty. And if a coach thinks so, run into the wrong officials and test that theory.

Peace

I agree that there are limits. There are some here who think those limits are the same whether we're right or wrong. I don't feel that way. Typically, I'll let him vent a little, then give him a stop sign. If he continues, it's "T" time for me, regardless of how bad my call is.

And that is fine, but not everyone feels the way you do. And since this was a partner that gave the T, the partner might not know why something was called or not call, but only is knowledgable of the reaction. And as said this was not a "blown call." It might have been something some of us would have passed on or might have called if other similar calls were made. But there was contact there for sure.

Peace

Again, virtually every time a coach gets cranky, it's because he thinks we missed a call. More often than not (let's lowball the estimate at 80%), we got the call right (like in the OP). Should we allow that, too?

Besides, most of us have clarified that we'd allow the coach to vent quietly, but the public stomp is off limits. And I won't be giving a stop sign. If I'm not going to allow him to show me up publicly, why would I do that to him? No, I'll be close enough to tell him when he's reached his limit.

I agree that it was not a blown call, but a judgement call which you could make a case for either way. In this situation, I would have no problem calling the "T". In my judgement, the "T" is best called by the official who the coach is on, but I understand (as Cameron stated well) that protocol may be different in different areas of the country. My point (that I still stand by) is that we need to be able to take more heat when we know we kick a call, than when we know we are correct. I agree that this doesn't give coaches an open invitation to abuse us with no consequences, but I also think our tolerance level should be much higher in these situations. I think to expect a coach to sit there and take it when we both know we screwed them (not intentionally, I know) is an unrealistic expectation.

I generally don't know if a call that a coach is questioning is right or wrong until I see the video. Most of them seem right until later. :) Coaches can question a call without venting. I have seen many coaches learn how to do so after being "taught" what is not right by officials who expect respect.

I wonder if we can use your point to criticize play calls by coaches. "Hey coach, that was a jackass play call. What the hell were you thinking?" I'm sure he won't report us to our assigner if we are right and the play call was actually stupid. We should be able to vent if he makes a mistake. :rolleyes:

I wonder if we can use your point to criticize play calls by coaches. "Hey coach, that was a jackass play call. What the hell were you thinking?" I'm sure he won't report us to our assigner if we are right and the play call was actually stupid. We should be able to vent if he makes a mistake. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't we all love to get away with that !!! LOL.

I've been traveling earning a living this week and the only comment I'll make on this thread is that it's unlikely a thrown clipboard will be passed on. Those are loud and out in the open and regardless of the reason, it's probably going to be a technical.

20 years ago, I was working a freshman game. The coach was an NCAA white hat in football and is now a D1 deep wing. That day he was a coach who was really upset at his team and fired his clipboard to the ground. The metal clip broke off and shot across the floor in front of me. One of the funniest (in retrospect) technical fouls I've ever had.