Gonzaga / Southern video (Added)
 

2:41, 2nd half. Not a blarge, but...

Definitely not a fan of the Ts mechanic here. Almost looked like he waved the L off.

Cringed on that one...

He pretty much did.

My question is so when does it become a blarge? He obviously wasn't pulling the TV Teddy straight up mechanic with both his fist in the air. He obviously was signaling a block while his partner was waving him off to call a charge.

At what point during your signaling are you committed to it being called? I've had this question before and never really had a concrete answer.

Exactly. It was obvious to God, Mother, Country and the other official that he was coming out with a block. He had a whistle and a preliminary. That's why I have always been told not to give a preliminary.
I agree about how it was handled on the court. Perfect time to huddle and talk it out and make sure everyone is on the same page.

Well, I was kind of joking that it wasn't a blarge because the trail hadn't signaled anything to that point...

Whistle While You Work ...
 

Two whistles, in the paint, agree 100%. That's what is taught here in my little corner of Connecticut.

Is there a BIG corner of Connecticut?:D

I thought Connecticut was a corner?

Still trying to think of when it becomes an actual official sign of a block?

I guess whenever they get together and someone says "we f'd up"

My bet is that "someone" will be the assignor/evaluator. Tidy it up any way you want...in the end, it was a blarge.

The Land Of Steady Habits ...
 

Northing's big in Connecticut (It's the direct opposite of Texas). I'm surprised that we were allowed to be a state. I guess the the Territory of Connecticut didn't quite sound correct to President Benjamin Franklin (He's a dead president, right?).

Correct. Connecticut is New England's little corner. Wait? New England's Little Corner? I've got to call a trademark attorney.

I saw this on TV in real time, but I haven't seen a replay/slow motion. However, my initial thought on the play was that it looked to be a pretty clear "block".

I'm also a new official and not too familiar with the details of 3-man (just finished my whole first season doing JV - 2 man) ... but it also seemed to me that this call should have been the Lead's primary, and the lead also appeared to have a better angle. Is this how others saw it? Why would the lead defer to the trail here?

At least the Trail, who "stole" this call from Lead, got it right: Player Control foul!

Any video of this? I saw it live and was shocked to see the T wave the L off. I'd like to get another look.

A possession or three before, a block was called against Olynyk that could have easily been a charge. The lead (who had his call stolen if you will) was the same official who called the block against Olynyk. He may have wanted to call a block for the sake of consistency.

Olynk started at about the 3 point line, I would not say this was the Leads responsibility at this point - he then drove left into the paint, near the 3 point line. L had the best look at seeing the defender slide into position. I think the defender got there late. From the positions on the court, it was in L's PCA, but it started in the T's PCA, so he went with it.

I think it was the wrong call, but called by the right official.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/2gZ8epDzYMs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Regardless, I like that they did not go BLARGE and have that stoopid double foul.
I hate that the NCAA says we have to have a block and charge.

The directive is that the L has secondary defenders, I really dont see a block on this play and not sure how the L came to that conclusion. Torso-to-torso, to and through.

The lead clearly displayed enough that anyone in the gym knew he had a block. By rule (like it or not) that should have been a double foul.

That said, the trail got it right.

But what if the lead was the one who was right? Is getting it completely backwards better than the double foul?

Please cite your rules reference.

It is not a double until both officials signal the nature of the call. Once both officials have signaled completely different calls, then they must have the double. Yes, everyone in the gym knew what he was likely to call.

However, I will say that I remember a game where I came up with two hands and actually correctly called a PC. So it is possible, though remote, he was about to signal charge.

The crew narrowly averted the BLarge because the L did not signal.

Trail has primary on drives initiated in his area. But I'd like to think Lead is just a great guy with no ego focused on getting the call right. I hope this is true.

Lead has responsibility for secondary defenders and plays in the lane. check, check.

The earlier block call was easy...no LGP until after the player left the floor.

Agree. B2 arrived at the spot before A1 did and A1 was not airborne. So B2 met his obligations.

And the trail communicated the way he did because he didn't want the Lead to finish his Block mechanic. I have no problem with what he did.

You know where it is.

Once the official has signaled a call, he's made that call. Given that no official may overrule another, when another official makes a different call, to change it is considered to be an overrule. They're stuck with both calls. The rules resolution of that is a double foul.

Sure, his signal wasn't" complete" but it was sufficient to know what it was. Once that is done where he has made his call known, in the case of a conflicting double whistle, there is no going back...by rule. That is the only reason that rule exists....to avoid the appearance of one overruling another.

And some will try to slice it by saying it should belong to the primary but I can always create a play where the primary is also ambiguous....so that still doesn't resolve it....and it is just as likely to lead to the wrong call as it would lead to the right call.

If the trail knew what the lead's signal was, then it was done. He overruled his partner. He may have got the right call, but he did so by breaking another rule.

Take Two Wrongs And Then Make A Left ...
 

Don't two wrongs make a right? Wait? I'm now being told that that's only in horseshoes, and hand grenades. Never mind.

Just playing to the other side of the argument.

Citation please. It is a double whistle. The T communicated to the L to hold his preliminary, then took the call himself.

He did not signal anything other than two hands in the air, which could have been a held ball for that matter. :)

Happy Valentines Day
 

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened had Ted Valentine instead of being center had been lead and was waved off by the trail.

Could someone post the NCAA rule regarding a blarge?

It was a memo/directive. If both officials give a preliminary signal, then both calls are taken to the bench and enforced. It is a common discussion the pre-games I have been part of to make sure that both officials are slow to show, rather than banging both right away.

The other thing from the video. Both officials go with two hands up, but only one gives a preliminary. The T basically gives the L a "no-no, I got this!" two handed stop sign. They made eye contact and the L gave the call to the T or the T took it, whatever you prefer. :)

Okay, thanks. So, like NFHS, there is nothing in the books to this effect. But, unlike NCAA, NFHS has no such memo/directive. Interesting.

The NFHS case play is clear, but you know that. You're the only one who suggests otherwise, but you know that. Let's stay on topic here.

I hope you're joking that only one gave a prelim. Sure, the lead didn't "finish" it, but he gave enough of it for everyone to know what he had. If the signal is received, that means it was sent. He showed what he had.

And, you know there is no way he was going from that position to a charge....you do that same thing and I've never seen you go to a charge from there.

One officials two hands up were actually in the process of making a block signal. The other other officials hands were not yet showing anything. At that point, the call was a block by one and nothing by the other. The trail then still came in, told him he was wrong, then made a contradictory signal....overruling him improperly. Was the ultimate call right? Sure. But the trail trampled all over his partner on that one.

You know better than to believe that. It is, at best, dishonest to say the lead hadn't called a block.

Well he did not actually signal anything. It might have been obvious what he was going to signal by his body language, but for all of our purposes, he never signaled. He was stopped from signaling by his partner.

Peace

+100

There was no preliminary signal made by either official. No matter what anyone thinks about the L going up with both hands - he had not yet made the signal for a block, no matter what he was GOING TO do.

I'll bet when the L looks at the video, he'll be pretty happy that he didn't give a preliminary, and his partner called him off.

Here's the interesting part. If I understand correctly, this NCAA memo specifies that opposing prelims=blarge. (must report both) But this starts a whole new debate. When is a signal a signal? Like in the OP. Yeah, it's pretty obvious that the lead had a block. Is the crew in trouble now for not reporting both?

I can't believe anyone could seriously think the L didn't give a signal. He blows his whistle and is sliding/hopping to his side while holding two fists high in the air. Let's not kid anyone here. That's enough for everyone to know he's calling a block.

Question for those trying to tell us the L didn't actually signal: in your opinion, at what point is the block signal actually made? Is it once the fists start to come down? When they actually hit the hips? Somewhere in between??

I agree with Camron. The signal was received, which means it was sent.

I have done the two hands up thing and then signaled a charge, I processed for a moment and made the correct call. It was never a block. The extra moment before banging my hips was enough for me to get it right.

The crowd (about 3500) didn't gasp and start screaming for what they thought I was going to call.

The only ones who knew it were my referee buddies, who texted me at halftime and said "nice save."

B/C's are usually bang-bang big moment plays, it happens.

And we've all done things when we meant to do something else. Which is one great reason why being required to ultimately do anything because of a signal is, how can I put this delicately, incredibly stupid.

Sounds like we are in agreement

If the lead would have started with a single fist foul signal before he started to signal a block, this thread wouldn't exist. :-) Good fundamentals can even save the big dogs.

It is? Well I can tell you I used to raise my arms to give ultimately at PC foul signal. I used wave off the basket and it was often assumed by people watching that I was giving a "block" call at first. And it does ot matter what we "think" he was going to do, he did not ultimately signal anything and tha is all that matters despite what you say. Not every official runs out and gives a PC signal. Many different ways officials do things or the style they use.

Isn't a block signal include putting your hands on your hips at some point? I do not see any block signal in any book that shows your hands raised. Not sure it is that complicated as you seem to be making it, where you agree with Camron or not.

Peace

He gave a motion that indicated what he was calling. Not showing is putting up a single fist indicating only foul and giving NO visual cues to which way you're going. That official skipped that and went straight to the block signal. What he did was the first part of a block and everyone knows it.

Anyone that thinks that official was doing anything other than calling a block and that his motions were anything other than part of the block signal is delusional. You're letting your desire to not have a blarge cloud what is obvious.

So they have to get all the way to the hips? If he stops 1" from his hips and does it 3-4 times, it isn't a block? Yeah, right. :/

If you want to be that technical the only signal he gave was a 3 point signal.

Now unless you are an NCAA Rules Editor or coordinator, then honestly what you or I think he means little. You can argue all you want, but there is not a signal that clearly shows a block. He puts his arms up but that is interpreted many ways. And guess what happened? They went with a PC foul. And unless you are on the NF committee or someone that evaluates officials across the country and has say, I would take the same position on this play. I do not like the fact a partner had to wave off the other before a signal, but there was no signal.

Peace

C'mon Rut. ;) Any person who watches basketball, whether an official or not, knows the Lead was about to call a block.

I like the Trail calling him off and doing a solid sell to avoid the blarge.

Wow. You are really stretching it.. you should quit trying to argue against the obvious

Obvious? Again Camron, we deal in definitions. There is no definitions that says a signal is made just because it looks like it is going to be a certain signal. And you are not in a position to say either way. All you are saying is your opinion and considering that many here do not always agree with your opinion, then it is nice you gave one, but not official. I am sure the officials in this game or their evaluator is not like, "You know that guy Camron on that website made some sense." I doubt anyone really even knows you or I have had this conversations and couldn't care less what we think either.

Peace

Did the Lead not blow his whistle? I think he knows he had something. He was telling him "I got this." Not sure who you work with, but I tend to know a lot of the time when my partner has a whistle and know when I am coming in hard to sell the call. It is not even a situation about a block-charge, it could be some other contact before the Lead would have something. Let us not make this so complicated. But we always seem to on this site.

Peace

Ch-Ch-Changes (David Bowie) ...
 

Over thirty years I wish I had a dime for every time that I made a last split second decision and either changed my open hand to a fist, or my fist to an open hand. I hope that it's how we "finish" our signal, not how we start our signal. But that's just my opinion and it does not necessarily represent the views of my local board, its affiliates, employees, sponsors, the local station, etc.

And if we go by what it "started to look like" then we should have been having this debate a long time ago. I do not know how many videos we had where an official looks like they are going to call something that is contradictory to what was actually called. Funny never heard this argument before.

Peace

Can anyone reveal the exact wording of the memo regarding this matter?

If two complete opposing preliminary signals are given, both fouls must be reported.


"Nice job holding up at the last possible instant, guy."


or

If an official has committed to make a certain signal and this is obvious to everyone involved, he is obligated to follow through and make the call. The call of one official taking precedence over another must be avoided at all cost, no matter how stupid it may look.

(surely not)

http://fitsnews.com/wp-content/uploa...il-on-head.jpg

If they signal improperly, you hit them with a hammer?

rough neighborhood

If there was no signal by the L then what exactly was his partner waving off?:confused: maybe his partner was just really happy to see the L and was waving HI with both hands? I mean I've done that before at parties and reunions.
Doesn't WBB still have the 'get together and get it right' instead of blare mentality?

Actually he did not wave him off, he put his arms up to say, "Stop" or "I got this." And if you have never seen an official do this in a game, well not sure what you have seen over the years. I have seen officials do something like this or tap their chest or point to their partner when there clearly was a double or multiple whistle play. Better yet, what did they talk about in the locker room after this play and I wonder what was talked about before these games. Many of these guys have never worked together or do not work in the same conferences.

Peace

One Of My Favorite Songs ...
 

El Cóndor Pasa, as sung by Simon and Garfunkel?

I'm getting of people saying the Trail WAVED OFF the lead. He stopped the Lead from finishing his preliminary and took the call. I took a call from my partner last might even though we had the same call. I took it bc it was mine to make.

Seems to me this thread has now split into three separate debates.

1) Were two preliminary signals given? I'm would argue that the lead stopped soon enough (since he never lowered his fists to his hips) that he avoided the dreaded blarge. Not sure if John Adams would agree with me or not.

2) Did the trail overstep his bounds by halting the lead from blarging? I'd say no...... blarges are the worst possible outcome. I think the lead had a better look, but I'd rather have the wrong official take a double whistle than to report the double foul.

3) Was the lead going to signal a block? Oh heck yes..... he was halfway through his block dance. It's completely obvious. He just didn't finish. He was definitely calling a block and the trail knew it.

Agree with everything stated.

Peace

So he gave a preliminary and didn't finish? Partners take calls all the time but I would wager the majority are violation or fouls, not block/charge.
I guess it boils down to what constitutes a prelim signal. L had a whistle and was coming out with a block. To think he was coming out with anything other than is a huge stretch. possible? yes probable? no. It's why the T give him the double handed wave/stop sign. HE knew what the signal was.

So if an official raises their arms you consider that a signal for a foul? I am not trying to be sarcastic or factious in asking this, but since when did that become one signal over another? Even if we "know" what he was going to call, not sure how that automatically constitutes that call. I have said before I used to raise both my arms to signal a PC foul and know others that do when they feel they have to sell one of these calls. Now we have to assume what we know the signal was as the standard? I hope then when someone comes running off the end line we know they are calling a PC foul too? Or watch Joey Crawford. :rolleyes:

Peace

Think about it. If he didn't really "show" an indication of what he had we really wouldn't even be having this discussion as there would be nothing to discuss. The fact is that he revealed what he had. It isn't an opinion.

Do you really, honestly think he was going to a charge??? Have you EVER seen anyone at that level signal a charge that way? There are two possibilities here....you answer no or you lie.

That, my friends, IS showing what you have. He showed enough to reveal his call and the trail and everyone else knows it. Discussion over by Rut's agreement.

Wouldn't bet the farm on that.

Every time? Nope. This case? Yes.

I am agreeing with Z, not you. You said that we have to go with a blarge because of the motion of the Lead. Z did not say that, but it is clear to me what he was likely to call form the Lead position, but does not apply to the rule or interpretation unless you have some evidence otherwise. And you have not shown any evidence that the only thing that can be considered here is a blarge.

Peace

Show me the rule that supports your position? Have fun looking for that reference OK.

Peace

Show me the rule supporting your position? I may have missed the 'When a preliminary is really a preliminary' section.

We have already given the rule many times and the casebook is very clear in the NF books. And there is absolutely no position or interpretation at the NF level that suggest any gesture or movement that looks like a signal is considered block or a charge. We have actually discussed this so much on this site if you do a search you will find all the references. Honestly I am not trying to prove anything to you, you do what makes you happy. I just know what I am going to do or consider a signal.

Peace

I try to do what makes my Supervisor happy!:D

Good. And since I have several of them and a state organization I answer to on two different fronts, I do not see anyone from those positions telling me that this situation would result in a double foul. We all have different masters to answer to.

Peace

One of mine would say 'That will learn you to give a preliminary'. Another would say 'Get together and figure it out'

This is what I know:

Rick Schnur, James Barker, and crew chief Teddy Valentine judged/determined/pre-gamed that merely putting 2 fists in the air does not constitute a block mechanic on a double-whistle crash.

Each one of us is free to pre-game this scenario in our contests and ajudicate it differently. Just b/c you would handle it differently doesn't make what these 3 officials did wrong.

You won't find it which makes it a situation that falls to the discretion of the crew working that particular day in that particular game.

I think it is safe to say that we all have seen or been involved in a B/C play where 2 officials have different calls. Neither has given a preliminary, there is a 50/50 chance for either call and one official takes the call. They report the charge. The coach says to the other you official "you had a block, tell him."

In this case the L official yields to the T official, therefore it was never a Blarge. That is what happened here.

The only people who are discussing it at all are OFFICIALS, because the actions are TYPICAL - not 100% - of calling a block. No one (media, fans, teams) is complaining that the call should've been because it looked like the L was going to call something else. It is likely the coaches, players, and a hand full of fans noticed. But I can tell you just as many don't know they had different calls. Just ask my parents, sisters, brother-in-laws, wife and kids and the others at Buffalo Wild Wings that had no clue.

When it comes to their evaluations the L did not receive an ICC and the T got a CC.

Well the commentators picked up on it right away, so your family became aware of it even if they didn't know right away.

There was another one with 6:20 to go in the first half of the WSU-Gonzaga game. They wen't with PC, but I couldn't really see if that was right or not.

WOW! This exact same play just happened again in the Wichita St./Gonzaga game somewhere in the 6:xx mark of the game. John Higgins (L) comes up with two hands (fists) as Mike Stuart (C) is sending it the other way. It's an epidemic! :D

Good communication prevented another Blarge. Apparently Stuart and Higgins don't consider 2 hands up a preliminary for a Block, otherwise they would have gone with the double foul. I think we are in good company. :)

I am also pretty sure that Mike Stuart is on the Butler-Marquette game.

Yep. My bad. It was John Gaffney.

As I said before, only on this board is this even a discussion.

Peace

I don't know how you could interpret the Lead's actions as anything else than a block signal in progress that the Trail stops. Everyone arguing differently simply wants to defend the officials at all costs.

This was a barge.

Like I have said before, show us where a rule or interpretation suggests that any movement is considered a "signal" and then you can make that ruling with great confidence. Otherwise you are giving your personal opinion that no one off this site would be likely having. Absolutely never heard this argument a day in my career before and we have talked about these situations many times before. Also many of us that you claim are defending the official at all costs often have criticized other officials for other things, so that holds little to no water either.

Peace

What it boils down to is that the NCAA has declared that once a conflicting call has been made known by showing what you have, you can''t cancel one of them. They didn't say you have to completely show it, just that it be shown. If you know what he had, it was shown.

There was a great example of it being done right at around the 15min mark of Butler/Marq. The C merely raised his fist and nothing more while the L took the call. The C may or may not have had something different but he didn't show any indication of what he had and it was over. That is how it should be done. Show "nothing".

Then what exactly was the Trail stopping the Lead from doing then?

He blew the whistle and put his hands in the air to signal a block....that movement is considered a signal in every basketball game I've ever watched. He sure isn't waving down the beer guy.

Well your claim is that these are conflicting signals. So in order for that the interpretation that everyone at that level can apply, don't you have to have something that suggests this is the case? All the video the NCAA uses (and they use a lot of it) and they have never addressed your claim that this is a "blarge" by rule or that you have to consider this action by the lead a "signal." I would have no problem agreeing with that opinion if there was some literature to back that up. Otherwise you will have this kind of action. Right now only NCAAW has made it where you can pick one or the other after calls have been signaled. The NCAA is staying with the same philosophy that the NF has laid out. And even the NF has not said that any gesture or movement that may look like a particular signal is a sign of a "blarge." You keep talking about rules but have no rule to support this very specific situation. Yes it is obvious to me that the Lead was going to call a block, but he did not complete the signal. And as I have stated before I have seen officials run off the baseline to signal a PC foul or a block depending o their personal style (Joey Crawford) and would that be evidence of either signal if they had not actually given a signal that looks somewhat like it is described in the book? I think that is a stretch and that is really all my position has been here.

Peace

Again, show me the rule that says that any movement is considered a signal that would result in a blarge? And unless you have not worked with many people, I see officials often in games I have worked make it clear they are taking the call without even having to put up their hands. Usually that is why you put your arm up first and then make eye contact and then when you realize that no one else has made a call or someone else has made a call, you then signal of what you are going with. Again, just show us the interpretation and I will agree with you if it says what you suggest.

Peace

Answer my question. What was the T stopping the L from doing?

There is no rule that governs signals and mechanics, only universally accepted signals that officials, coaches, players, and fans recognize.

The L did not "put an arm up" to simply stop the clock with a closed fist indicating he had a foul, he put both fists up and started his block signal. If you can't figure that signal out I don't know why you officiate.

+1

I can answer your question all day, it does not change the fact there there is no rules support to say a signal is given when someone "raises their arms" in any way shape or fashion. I have seen an official do the same thing when there is a simple double whistle and stop their partners from coming out with a signal. I have really seen that happen in D1 situations. He could be simply stopping him (as I have said before in this thread) and say, "I got this." There are a lot of reasons people put up their hands.

If your argument is why someone signaled something, then we will never agree. You need a rule to support that this is nothing but a blarge and you do not have one right now. That is all I am saying so what you "think" means nothing when the rules makers have not said that applies to a blarge situation and only a blarge situation. Maybe they will one day address this specific situation, but they have not at this point.

Peace

I think this is not an argument that we can have here. If I understand it, there is nothing in the books making a signal, or any part thereof, binding at any level. (there definitely isn't in NFHS) So it is ultimately a matter of what the bosses want.

Ask them.

I disagree with this statement. I'm sure the coaches had something to say and discussed it.

First of all it is hyperbole. Secondly I have never been to any association, staff or personal discussion with any official that has ever said that a blarge is when an official "looks like" they are going to signal something. And considering that it was never discussed by the anyone after the game for that purpose, I am going to guess it probably is not something many non-officials are even thinking about. Just an educated guess of course.

Peace

Well you have stated that hyperbole as fact in a couple of posts. I was pointing out that it is not fact. Does this mean every double whistle is discussed? Nope. But when you have a play similar to this, you can bet you will have a discussion with at least one of the coaches about it and that coach will have a discussion about it.
This whole thing could be avoided if the NF and NCAA-M mirrored the NCAA-W on this.