Had my first experience with the 30 point blow-out rule at YBOA nationals in FL and have to say I can't stand it. We had two games where the margin got real big really quick, and we began to adjust. Unfortunately, while we were learning to play at a higher level, the clock started running and our game got shortened an unbelievable amount. They even ran it during FTs. And the real problem was that you had to cut the margin to 20 to get the clock going again. I don't like, won't like it. We went down to play, so let us play and let the chips fall where they may.

I agree about games at those higher levels. It really isn't fair, and it's not what most people at that level want.

I do think it has a place at the school level, though, and that it can be a useful tool. I can't see that it would be all that difficult to ask coaches before the game what they want to do.

The reason I don't like a rule that changes a clock from stop to running due to the point differential is that is short-changes the players who have paid to play a full game. Even in HS, players pay to play and they should get their money's worth. http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/twocents.gif

Re: Displacement is the key.
 

I agree with you Hawks Coach. I've never thought the running clock was the way to deal with blow outs. I'll not start the debates all over again, but I'll never believe that shortening playing time is the right answer.

One other thing. As humiliating as the blowout is, it is more humiliating to have an artificial margin at which point you are officially blown out. You find yourself coaching and playing to avoid the embarrassment of that clock starting to run. So if the purpose is to relieve some of the humiliation, I think it had the opposite effect.

Years ago, in our local rec league, we instituted a rule that we took the score off the board if the spread was 20 points or more. We thought it would promote sportsmanship. Just the opposite happened, however.

We found kids were trying to "turn the score off" on the other team and then bragging about it in school. It became an incentive.

After one year, we eliminated that rule. I think the same might happen with the running clock mercy rule.

If a team gets mercied, it got its money's worth.

Oh boy, I do not know how to respond to this thread, since I officate in the YBOA Nationals.

I checked my diary and found the following results:

Last year in the YBOA Girls' I officiated 19 games and 4 of them went to running clock and in 3 of those games the team that lost was a over-matched foreign team. In last year's YBOA Boys' I officiated 23 games and 4 went to running clock.

This year I officiated in the Police Athletic League Boys'/Girls' National. I officiated 19 games and 2 of them went to running clock and suprisingly it was in the boys' 16U division. In the first game the teams were really well matched but the losing team got made at each other and then just quit playing, in their next game they mercied their opponent. In the second game the teams were mismatched from the start. The losing coach told me before the game that he expected to get mercied.

Before my knee gave out see Hawks Coach's "noise maker" thread for the details, I officiated 23 games in the Girls' Nationals two weeks ago and had only 2 games go to running clock.

I really do not know what to say. I agree that the teams pay a lot of money to play in these tournaments and the argument could be made that they are not getting their money's worth. But as a parent of boys' who play sports, there are times when you just do not want to see your children embarassed.

And as an official, when the 5th game of the day rolls around, and your first 4 games have been nail biters with maybe an overtime or two thrown in, you really do not mind getting a game that ends up as a running clock game, but only if the winning team earns that running clock. No official should give the game to the better team just to get the game over. Actually, a better scenario for that last game of the day is if one or both teams fail to show. Forfeit and still get paid.

Here is the reason I do not like this as well.
 

In football (in my state) we have a 40 point "mercy rule" in place. What happens in football, officials do everything in their power to make this happen. I know many officials that spend more time worried about the running clock and debating over what can and cannot be done during this time, they stop officiating like normal. You have more guys trying to get out of there, than just calling what happens. And it totally seems to influence how you call the game with holding penalties (that are very warranted btw) and other things that could potentially stop the clock. Now in football someone can get hurt because of the type of collisions that can continue when the game is in play. Basketball does not have that problem. All that can be hurt for the most part are egos. And if that is all, that can be delt with considering that the clock runs most of the time anyway. You are not in a major threat of having a kid taken out on a stretcher worrying about whether he can walk again. That does happen in football and the "mercy rule" has it's place in that game. But in basketball, I see no purpose for it. And if all we are worried about is embarrassment and egos, then the kids should not be playing sports or anything competitive to begin with.

MTD
Did you do any 13U YBOA games? IF so, do you remember any of the teams you had?

Coach:

I assume you are asking about this year's YBOA Girls' Nationals. Yes, I did, but none of the teams were from Maryland. Last year I also officiated some 13U games but once again none of them were from Maryland.

As far as last year's YBOA Boys' Nationals I officiated games involving the following teams from Maryland:

Prince George Jaguars
Prince William Metro Thunder
Metro Sixers
Ballhandlers

and they were in the 9U, 10U, and 12U age divisions.

MTD, Sr.

Hawks Coach, I understand your point about paying for playing time and think it has great merit, but would like you to consider the blowout game from the viewpoint of an official trying to improve. We pay for court time too!

Let's assume that the official is not local and so has traveled to the tournament at his own expense and is also having to pay for a hotel, meals, and maybe even a rental car. Now, some of these expenses are going to be off-set by the game fees, but it is likely that the official will lose money on the endeavor. So why does the official do this?

For example, I flew to Las Vegas this week and worked 14 games at the Adidas Big Time tournament which attracted 400 teams of HS eligible boys from all over the country. I paid $150 for the flight, $105($35 a night) for a hotel room, and $180 for a rental car. I was paid $378 ($27/game) for the games. That's a loss already and I haven't even included my meals and gatorade!
I knew going into the event that I would lose money by going. So why would I go? Answer: for fun and to improve. The same reasons that you and your players attend these tournaments.
I wanted to see some of the best HS players in the nation play fast-paced, high-caliber basketball. I needed to see lots of above the rim play. In short, I wanted to test my officiating skills at a level of play that is simply not available in my local area.
We played two 16 minute stop-clock halves. I had a game that was 44-7 at the 8 minute mark of the first half and ended 113-69. This tournament did not use a running clock, but let's consider what would happen if they did. First, the winning team would not have put up 113 points. Kids, especially boys, always try to score 100 on somebody. This only leads to hurt feelings and poor sportmanship situations. (Like trying to dunk on somebody.) Second, the tournament would certainly be able stay on schedule. Don't you expect to play your games on their scheduled times and plan your teams meals and other activities around those times at a tournament? What if there had been a double OT game earlier in the day? I had two of those down there. The running clock game would allow the site to catch up. This was important for this tourney since the last game of the day at some gyms was starting at 10:20 PM and finishing near midnight. Maybe the tournament has to pay the security guards extra past midnight or there is some other expense, so they really don't want to be late. Perhaps the running clock mercy rule would ensure that the tournament wouldn't have to fear extra costs and thus could hold down the cost to the teams?
You would certainly like that, right?
Third, both the kids and the officials lose some time on the court. But the question to ask here is, is it quality time? Are the kids trying to execute an offense are they exerting themselves on the defensive end? If not, then it is likely that there isn't going to be much for me to officiate, and I am also likely not learning much from this time on the court. Perhaps I could better use the time to rest and be strong and sharp for my next double OT game where every call could make a difference.
Coach, in summary, what I am asking the members of this forum is simply, "What do we learn from blowout games, and do/can we really improve during them?"
My feeling is that both teams kind of quit when the score gets lopsided and that it is rather hard for an official to improve his game in this situation.
I am for the running clock because of this. I don't care about the money issue. If I did, I wouldn't even go to the tournament.

Simply because you prefer working a 3 OT barnburner does not mean you are excused from giving 100% in a blowout. There's plenty to work on in a blowout, they have a dynamic all their own.

BTW, where did you find a $35/night room in LV? On the other hand maybe I don't wanna know...

:shudder:

BTW, where did you find a $35/night room in LV? On the other hand maybe I don't wanna know...

[/B][/QUOTE]The maid was $500/night,though. :D

Nationals are for the players
 

not the refs. Yes, you may go because you derive a benefit from working hihg level games with high level refs and players.

We, on the other hand, work all year with the goal of going to nationals and playing the best in the country. We welcome the chance to play great team, and if we get blown out, so what. We are learning the entire time. We learn more toward the end after we have adjusted to the team we are playing. We play interim scores, play to go five minutes and cut into a margin, etc. We are also playing teams that we will probably never see again. We played 6 teams of the 28 that came, and not all of those 28 will ever come again. Unlike local tournaments and leagues, where we can ensure we get more opportunities against our opponents, we are playing people that happened to qualify, paid to attend, and got assigned to our pool. Not likely that the same combination will occur ever again.

As for your finances, I am not sure you have listed all income. You are building skills and adding substance to your officiating resume, which may lead to higher level and higher paying games next winter. Your attendance is an investment, as well as an opportunity to see great players up close every day. Regardless, you are out about $50 after having a great experience in Vegas. We, on the other hand, shell out nearly $10,000 for a team and entourage to travel to and stay one week in Florida.

On balance, I can't see why we should care whether extending a game meets your goals. We are financing the whole operation, and should get to play it out.

Nationals are for the players not the refs. Yes, you may go because you derive a benefit from working hihg level games with high level refs and players.

We, on the other hand, work all year with the goal of going to nationals and playing the best in the country. We welcome the chance to play great team, and if we get blown out, so what. We are learning the entire time. We learn more toward the end after we have adjusted to the team we are playing. We play interim scores, play to go five minutes and cut into a margin, etc...

Coach, you are absolutely correct, and the top refs take that attitude, too, of working to do higher levels, and taking full advantage of every opportunity. I know Nevada Ref has expressed similar views in other posts. I expect he is just feeling cranky from the heat. Who wouldn't!?!

Re: Nationals are for the players
 

Unfortunately Coach, many officials do not take that attitude. Many think that if they go do a game, it is only about them. Yes, we have a right to know what we are getting into, but after the game starts and we have already agreed to be there, we should just officiate the game and go home afterwards. But in my experience (as Juulie said), the top or good officials are just looking to work and get better. They do not worry about those kind of things in the first place. At least not the ones that want to move up or maintain their position. But that is why the cream rises to the top I guess.

Peace

Re: Nationals are for the players
 

Well there's your problem right there, coach. You & your team have an *ENTOURAGE*. The closest thing we refs have to an (ahem) *ENTOURAGE* is an observer in the stands and some assistant coach on the bench, both of whom who watch every damn thing we do.

:D

To clarify a couple of items:
1. Anyone who joins a player's club at any of the casinos on the LV strip can get great rates on the rooms. I joined five of them in the past two years and just check who has the best deal before I go. FYI I stayed at the Sahara this time.
2. I truly have come to respect HawksCoach on this forum. His viewpoints and thoughts have always been posted with class and intelligence.
3. It seems to me that his main problem with the mercy rule is that it cheats his team out of the gametime for which they have paid. I was merely pointing out that there are other people besides players and coaches whose time is part of these games. I am thinking of officials, scorekeepers, timers, school security, gym administrators, on-site trainers, etc.
While the teams pay for the bulk of expenses of any tournament, I'm not convinced that this should give them more say than anyone else involved when it comes to how long the game should be. It is my opinion that the team pays its entry fee for the opportunity to compete, if they show that they are incapable of doing this, some form of mercy should be applied to the contest. Remember, I am from Nevada where we have Mills Lane to stop the fight!
I believe that the mercy rule is a sort of compromise to these people. If the contest is no longer competitive it shortens the amount of time these people have to give.
4. Lastly, HawksCoach has provided the way that his team treats being on the losing end of a blowout. As usual he takes a first-class approach. I'm sure that his team continues to play hard, execute its system, and tries to improve. In this situation, the officials should be happy to continue working and learning. Unfortunately, I doubt that most teams do this. We have all seem games in which the losing team simply gives up, or worse gets frustrated, and resorts to cheap shots. If all teams handled the blowout likes HawksCoach we would not need a mercy rule, but the sad fact is that the majority do not. In addition, we must consider the blowout from the winning team's viewpoint. Is this team learning anything from a game that they are winning by 30? Are they just fooling around and showing off? If it were my team, I would not want to play anymore than I had to due to the risk of injury. Who wants to lose their 6th or 7th man, let alone a starter, for the rest of the tournament to an ankle sprain in a game that it no longer meaningful?
Just my thoughts. As always, HawksCoach, your replies are eagerly awaited.

Pay to play
 

HawksCoach,

Did you know before you went to the tourney that there would be a mercy rule? If you did, why are we even having this discussion. I would suggest that you take into consideration the mercy rule before you make arrangements to go to any tournaments. If you didn't know, I would suggest that you make it a priority to ask the tourney director if they will be using the mercy rule prior to registration. There are lots of tournaments for you to choose from. If you don't like the way a touney is set up, there are other tournaments that will probably accomadate. I guess my point is, ask before you go and if it's not the type tourney you are looking for....keep looking.

Re: Pay to play
 

TN Roundball
Yes, I knew this in advance. No, it would not keep me from attending a tournament. I have expressed here that I prefer the NCAA FT rules to the NFHS, but it doesn't cause me to look only for tourneys that do NCAA rules. This forum has raised the issue of the point spread rule, and I am voicing an opinion that I believe it inappropriate for a national championship tourney.

Nevada - I understand that there are many participants. All but the teams are paid, the teams are paying to play. So I don't frankly care too terribly much what the scorers, timers, refs, etc., think of blowout games. Not trying to be harsh, it's just that the HS teams that ran our gyms are funding their program for the year and the refs are getting paid and good experience. And we are providing the cash and the experience.

Your best case is the issue of injuries. I know that I have gotten players hurt in blowout games and you hate to see it happen. But I also get them hurt in practice and in overtime of tight games. I actually liked the running clock when ahead and I had two games that day because it rested my players for the afternoon. But I would prefer the rule not be used. Had we not had the running clock, I would have given some of my bench players a real good run in the 2nd half, which helps the players and the team. As for coaches that don't know how to use blowouts to their advantage, they have many issues to deal with and rules won't help them. We don't make rules to save teams from themselves with respect to poor coaching or lack of discipline. The best coaches are always coaching, the best teams are always learning.

The use of a "Running Clock" for youth basketball follows the trend set up by other team sports.

I believe the use of these type of measures by those putting together the rules is for "Sportsmanship." No one wants to see kids humiliated.

Baseball and Softball both have run rules for this purpose along with time limits. I have seen Football at youth levels use a running clock for point differences.

These rules are put in by those running the tournaments and leagues and we as officials show up as contracted and officiate by the rules given.

I know a few coaches you could email this line to.

http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/sad2.gif

Agree 100% with this. But, if there's no mercy rule in place we should not be enforcing one of our own by calling funny fouls & telling the coach to back off.

It's just part of the job.