Pre-free throw hand fighting
 

Tried searching the forum, but to no avail. The usual hand fighting before a free throw, and you say "knock it off" or "we'll shoot when you're ready". What if they keep it up? Contact during a dead ball, technical foul?

Does it fall under ignoring a request of an official, delay of game, etc?

Thanks in advance,

"Knock it off" usually does the trick.

Before calling a foul, remember that contact alone is not illegal. The contact must disadvantage an opponent.

I would be HIGHLY unlikely to call a T for "failing to follow an instruction" for this. It would have to have gone on all game despite repeated warnings, common fouls, etc. and be verging on fighting for me to go there.

Instead of "knock it off", Try "if either of you reaches across this line (make a vertical motion between them), I'm calling a foul". If they do...call a foul...or double foul if necessary. That usually does the trick. Once the ball is bounced to shooter, it's a live ball, so a T isn't necessary.

I simply go to the offender, state, while pointing at the lane space, "See that line, well there is an imaginary plane that extends up and you can't put your hand or foot for that matter through that plane before the ball hits the rim" then depending on the team A or B, I saw we'll cancel the attempt or shoot the shot over again if the shooter misses.

If it is prior to the shooter having the ball I "Stare them down" and like you stated say knock it off, or when you are done we'll start this thing.

If I witness chicken fighting during a free throw I'll walk up to them and say something along the lines of "Guys, we're not going to reach over these lines until the ball hits the rim (or the release, for NCAAM), RIGHT?" I've just started doing this this season and it's worked every time so far. They'll usually look at you, nod and knock it off.

"Knock it off". If they don't listen then I'll find a foul to call on the next missed free throw. ;)

Don't tell them that: it's wrong by rule. :(

GV game: Ready to administer free throw, B1 and A2 next to each other in lane spaces, doing the "my arm on top of your arm, then your arm on top of my arm" thing. I step towards them and smiling, say, " Hey, knock off the sword fighting!" Everybody laughs, and there's no more problem.

BV game, similar antics, I step to the 2 players involved, and say just loudly enough so they can hear me, " You guys know, that what you're doing is the same as stepping in early." I smile, and shrug my shoulders. No more problem.

Sometimes, it's the words we choose, and the way we deliver the message.

I've also used "If you guys want to hold hands, prom is in a couple of months."

If you just let them know you're watching, then it will stop, even if there's nothing (yet) illegal about it.

I'd like to know how much "pre" of the free throw it is. Once the ball is in the shooter's hands, the ball is live, and technicals are pretty much off the table (cursing/taunting notwithstanding).

I had one of these a few years ago. Ball in shooter's (A-1) hands, B-2 and A-2 are hand jostling, to the point where B-2 yells "QUIT IT!" as A-1 releases.

Tweet, basket good, foul on you, and foul on you. Let's go.

I don't get this. It's not the same as stepping in early. If one grabs the other's hand, call the hold. If one slaps the other, call that. But I don't understand why officials want to make up rules to make their job easier.

If "knock it off" doesn't work, embarrass them. Next time they do it, stand in front of them with the ball, staring at them. When they stop, ask them if they're done. Or Bob's prom joke works, too.

If there's a foul, call it (even if you have to go Double Foul).

"Will you guys stop playing patty cake with each other?"

Usually that gets the message and they stop excessiveness.

Peace

Good idea except for the fact that the rules don't require that any player keep their hands inside their plane....only the feet/legs.

Patty Cake Foul ...
 

2012-13 NFHS POINTS OF EMPHASIS

4) Guidelines to enforce illegal contact. Escalating fight situations can often be traced back to illegal contact not being properly enforced and penalized. Examples of illegal contact are:
Contact between players in free throw lane spaces prior to the ball contacting the ring a. It is illegal to physically contact an opponent prior to the ball legally contacting the ring.

Any Other Rules Officials Want To Make Up ???
 

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for posting. You'd be surprised at the number of officials that don't quite understand this simple concept. If I may do a little nit picking, please? The rule only applies to the feet, not the legs.

Yes, they can. You are making up a rule which doesn't exist.

This is my preferred method, in either order. The staring tends to work pretty well.

Has Padgett hacked these accounts? :eek:

I'm gonna try and remember some of these......

I have used the "sword fighting" lingo myself from time to time.

In regards to the hand fighting as the free throw shooter is holding the ball, and it so bad that a foul is called, what happens to the free throw? If Team A is shooting, and a kid from Team A is called for pushing on the lane, does the foul negate the shots?

Never seen it, and don't anticipate it, but these things always get me thinking, plus it's late!

Lots Of Variables ...
 

Continuous motion applies here; and whether, or not, the foul is by the free throw shooting team, or the nonshooting team; and whether, or not, the free throw has been released when the foul occurs; or whether, or not, the free throw shooter is in the act of shooting when the foul occurs.

I don't believe that a foul will ever "negate" a free throw, only a violation by the shooting team will "negate" a free throw.

I work JV and J-high and it seems you see more of this during the girls games. One time I warned the girls about not violating the principle of verticality and of course they look at me like I'm from Mars, but by the tone they seem to understand they needed to knock it off. Next time we went up to the free throw line, the shooter had the ball and the other six on the blocks all had hands straight up like they were in a bank being robbed. This sight did not go unnoticed by the amused crowd.

Lane Space Principle Of Verticality ???
 

The players only have marked lane space "verticality" restrictions on their feet. Heads, elbows, shoulders, hands, hips, and knees can go through any plane, short of contact.

Sugar And Spice, And Everything Nice ...
 

Agree. Why?

Carl Douglas Made Me Do It ...
 

Sorry guys, but every time I read the title of this thread, I kept thinking of this song. I tried, but eventually succumbed. I'm weak. I'm very, very weak.

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The same reason they insist on twisting in their lane space and sticking their heel in the air. The same reason they yell "ball ball ball" on defense and keep a pivot foot on a throw in.

Hormones ???
 

... and that reason is?

I had this at the last game I officiated for the season (JV Boys makeup). I said something a bit more diplomatic than "knock it off" to let them know it needed to stop. Thankfully, they got the message and stopped.

And pull their shorts up and stick their 2" strip of jersey on their shoulder in their bra strap so it doesn't "get in the way."