Marginally interesting article
 

Here is some referee press from Utah.

Schools struggle with fairness in high school officiating

Because boys have three man and girls don't, the girls never see the best refs.

If there's anyone in the forum out there from Utah one thing I'd like to know is how are games played out there, specifically are the boys' and girls' games assigned as doubleheaders?

When I worked in GA our games were assigned as DHs with the girls' game first. You got the same crew for both games so there wasn't as much of a concern about "strong" vs. "weak" officials since it was the same three people. If Utah did that it would cut down on that issue.

Jetmet-
you read my mind.here games are assigned for the most part as doubleheaders
JV Girls 3PM
JV Boys 4:30 PM
Varsity Girls 6PM
Varsity Boys 7:30 PM

A team of 2 comes in and works both JV games,followed by another team of 2 for varsity.One home date this year was varsity only and that had one official assigned to both with a lady coming in for the girls game and a guy replacing her for the boys game.

Do you ever have trouble getting officials for such early games? I can't even make 4:30 games very often, I can't imagine getting there at 2:30 or earlier for a game on a weekday.

no although a lot of times the JV officials will show up about 20 minutes prior to tip.I've had only a couple of JV officials show up even 45 minutes prior to tip.

NYC publics start the vast majority of Varsity games at 4:30P (used to be 4P). Some guys have issues but those are the same guys who'd probably be late for a 6P tip as well.

I've heard this before. Schools don't want to provide paid training time for the new official on the crew on a given night. Hard to blame them for this.

I find this hard to believe, unless some of the guys do adopt the attitude that they are now above calling the girls game and obviously dog it. For the most part, I think it's more a case of ugly basketball makes for ugly officiating.

And this is just a crock.

It is hard enough to keep up with a tough boys game on one night and I do not know how I would be able to be focused to work a girls game in the same night (different talent level, different style of play and different expectations).

So glad we do not do that crap around here or we have gotten away from that stuff. I think all this double header stuff makes people decide not to officiate in the first place. Maybe this is why in basketball there is almost no shortage.

Peace

The byline made me do it
 

Really???
 

Not here. Even the lowliest, most unskilled girls' games have 3-(hu)man varsity, same as the boys'. I always thought it was a Title IX issue that has driven that. Maybe not........

Just got home from a girls varsity game with a local team who ended up rated high in the state for about the fourth straight year. At that site they actually often have scheduled the boys' varsity game as the first game of a doubleheader because the girls' team is the real draw. They play the girls' game first and many people exit prior to the boys' game. Weird.

They went to 20-0 today. Running clock coming out of the locker room at the half. Nice....

Thankfully, officials where I live are free to work all boys games, all girls games, or a mixture. Nobody is forced to work any games they may not want to work.

Personally, I worked about 70% boys this season and will be working 100% this year. After working nothing but boys games for 3 weeks, I really struggled with the (slower) pace and the differing expectations of the girls game.

I'd be thrilled if we were licensed separately in the two genders - as is done with baseball and softball. At least when someone calls me to cover a softball game, I can quickly say "I am not licensed in softball" and it ends the conversation. When someone asks me to work a girls game, I have to be more careful in how I respond. "I don't work girls games" is not taken well by some people.

As you know there are no restrictions here either, but people just choose not to work both or certain assigners do not consider an official good enough to work boys basketball or certain conference level basketball. And right now the 1A/2A girls state finals are going on this weekend, well people like me would never want to work that stuff and would have to choose on some level as the boys 3A/4A season just ended last night. We just have a choice and I feel blessed that I can choose what to work when I leave my house.

Peace

The girls never see the best refs because its a girls game. Just a fact. Most officials, if asked what they would rather work, will answer boys.

Yup, I know the scene down there, too. We used to work for 2 assignors down there (one of whom was a great guy and I was sorry to hear he passed a couple of years back). In 5 years down there, we never worked a girls game, come to think of it.

I see no need to force someone to work a girls game just so "they get good refs too." The officials shouldn't be forced to work games they don't want to work. Most officials here work both. Some work only boys, some work only girls. No big deal, really.

The only people that really make a big deal about that are people that only work girls games in my experience and have to justify their place in the pecking order of recognition. Usually when I am asked about not working girls basketball, it is usually those officials that make a big deal out of that fact. Otherwise it is not much of an issue. As I said we have different classes and someone working a 1A boys game is not necessarily qualified to work 3A or 4A ball with D1 players and above the rim play common. It is more about ability of what you are used to than anything. Gender only is a one part of that equation.

Peace

"While it was far from unanimous, the boys coaches voted to try a three-official crew in 2008, while the girls coaches voted not to go that route."

I stopped reading there.

Over 20 years ago, the NCHSAA said, "We will use 3 person crews for ALL varsity games." End of debate.

This is actually suggested by the state assigner in the article as a solution, and rejected by the girls coaches. Apparently there are concerns that not all facilities can handle boys and girls in the same night, and the girls do not want to be early game all the time.

Since the coaches voted not to use 3-man, they can't complain.
They had a chance and passed. Now they get exactly what they asked for.

If there is only one gender, the Utah schedule is almost always

3:30 Soph
5:15 JV
7:00 Varsity

If there are both genders at the same time, then it is

3:30 Boys Soph in main Gym, and girls JV in Auxiliary Gym
5:15 Girls Varsity in Main Gym and Boys JV in Auxiliary Gym
7:00 Boys Varsity in Main Gym and girls Soph in Auxiliary Gym

But not all schools have adequate lockers or aux gym for both genders. For now, most games are not assigned as double headers unless the assigner is having trouble getting refs. We have either 3 or 6 crews at the facility each night. Double headers are assigned frequently at remote sites to reduce travel, but at metro sites each crew does just one game.

Nevada currently uses this schedule in the largest classification:
At school A:
3:30 subvarsity contest
5:15 GV
7:00 BV
At school B:
3:30 subvarsity
5:15 subvarsity
7:00 subvarsity

The subvarsity games (GF, BF, GJV, BJV) rotate from year to year through the four different possible slots.

If an area is going to have both genders at the same site, I favor the way that the smaller schools do it.
At school A:
3:00 GJV; 4:30 BJV; 6:00 GV; 7:30 BV
With the two freshmen games at school B, if the schools have them.

NV uses 3-man for all varsity games both boys and girls at D1 and D2, while using 2-man at the D3 and D4 levels. All subvarsity is 2-man.

I should state that there is one school in our league with multiple gyms.When playing at that site the schedule is as follows:
4:30 PM-JV Girls-Secondary Gym
4:30 PM-JV Boys-Main Gym
6:00 PM-Varsity Girls-Main Gym
7:30 PM-Varsity Boys-Main Gym

So this school on league home nights requests three crews of officials.

And which games are worked by each of the three crews? Obviously different crews are working the two 4:30 contents, but does one stick around and also work the GV game or does a new crew come in and work both varsity games?

EC??

If so, I miss him too

Or BB.

Peace

Nevada-
a different crew comes in and works the two varsity games.

Because boys have three man and girls don't, the girls never see the higher ranked officials.
(Fixed it for you.)

This Wednesday-Saturday is our section finals.All games done in 3 person when regular-season execpt for a handful of tournaments is 2 person.Good luck to all 66 officials who will get to work a final.

I find that curious given that the girls and boys play by different rules modifications in CA.
It's the reason that I work only on the boys side.

Thank you, all of us will be hoping for the best this week. The games will be intense.

It's the same in NY State. Boys play NFHS, girls play modified NCAAW. You need separate rules certification for both.

Why do they do that? I guess if there are enough officials, it's no big deal, but seems pretty inefficient.

This would be the greatest thing ever. "Sorry, but I'm not certified to work girls basketball."

I'm not at the pay grade to know why :)

I don't know about the rest of the state but within NYC, Long Island and Westchester there are more than enough officials to cover everything and lots of people - me, included - do both.

If anyone wants to watch any of the Southern Section finals here is the link to fox sports prep zone which will be carrying the action.
http://www.foxsportswest.com/pages/prepzone_schedule

Totally agree. You mentioned in your first post you have to use some more tact when declining girls games. I've done it (tactlessly) a few times this year with bad results. Do you have suggestions for better things to say?

From what I remember you are still particularly new at this. Newbies only get to turn down games that conflict with job or family. You gotta earn "pick-and-choose" status. ;)

Great! Thanks for the opportunity. I appreciate it.

Not singling you guys out, and I promise not to label you as sexist for your honest and open responses.

I'm wondering why the aversion to calling the girls game. It can't just be general talent level, or you'd be refusing boys games with two bad teams and maybe even accepting girls games with two good ones. I'm genuinely curious as to the reasons.

(Personal experience, and this is likely an over-exaggeration, but the JH and HS boys coaches around here are FAR tougher to deal with than the JH and HS girls coaches).

Yep, us noobs don't get to turn back games just because... The only time I've turned back games is if a) I've got a family conflict, b) I've got a work conflict, c) I've been assigned a game at a SIGNIFICANTLY higher level (think: D-III college football game on Saturday afternoon instead of a 9th grade game that morning), or d) injury.

In my career 6-year combined football, basketball and baseball career, I think I've turned back less than 5 games TOTAL, two of which were of the "swapping a college game for a high school one" variety.

Also, Rich contracts directly with schools. If you are getting games through an assignor he/she doesn't want some newbie telling him/her what games he is willing to accept.

I gotcha, but I've heard it the other way too. Right now, I do not work for an assigner, which means I get to pick and choose. I was at a game with my mentor a few days ago and heard a story about how someone turned back a postseason girls game he was given, which bodes very bad for his future getting games. I guess at the college level too, turning back games is one of the worst things you can do.

EDIT: Just read your latest post. High schools in my area are about 50/50 assigners/self-hire. But yeah, I won't turn down any games I get from an assignor.

I've always received my HS games through an association commissioner. Over the years, as I improved, I received fewer and fewer girls games. This year I worked for 2 different associations and was assigned exactly 1 girls game and that game got snowed out.

I also only receive JV games if they are part of a DH. I have a very good female friend who quit working HS games b/c the commissioner wouldn't give her any boys games.

I have no desire to work a game that looks nothing like what I want to advance in at either college or HS. I think it is really hard to go back and forth and do them adequately.

Another factor, in my state we have the option to work either boys playoffs or girls playoffs. And if I were to work girls playoffs then I would have to likely turn back games that I have assigned for girls games. And I like only working 3 games and 4 at the most in a week (and that usually involves a college game or two). Working both genders would or potentially take that up to 5 or 6 in a week. I also have other things I like to do and I want to continue officiating and doing that many days a week (and working 3 sports on top of that) would just make me want to quit overall or burn out quickly. And this also does not include that when I started officiating I never even though of doing girls games because I clearly did not watch that side of the sport before I officiated and it was never in my plans or goals to advance in that level.

The bottom line when I leave my house, I have to like what I am about to do or change what I am doing or quit what I am doing. I do not begrudge those guys that want to work both, but I see no point personally. And it would cause problems with certain assignors if I am constantly trying to walk that line doing both.

Peace

If officials here were allowed to decline girls games, there wouldn't be enough people to work those games. We have all games assigned by one assigner and we can't decline games that are assigned. The guys high up in the pecking order don't work much if any girls basketball though. Then the majority of us work both boys and girls at various ratios of each. Then there are officials who work almost all or all girls basketball.

The honest answer: Because I have fun in about 10% of the ones I work.

I am working 3 postseason girls games and I expect that the first two will be in the 90% category and the last one will be in the 10% category.

Trust me when I say I give all of these games all of the hard work I can. I just don't want to after this season. 26 years is enough.

New to this site (well actually I think I did some lurking here a few yrs ago) but this subject is one that hits close to home with me.
A little history: I am a girl, I have been officiating basketball at some level since I was 12 yrs old (my dad refs and when I was old enough he sent me to do the pee wee games), I had shoulder surgery this past October and have not worked this season at all.
I am considering doing high school ball next yr after about 7 yrs of only working women's college ball (juco, DIII, NAIA).
I know I will be considered a newbie but I have no desire to work 2 man or ONLY girls games. There are just very few competitive girls games to work. I think all varsity games in my area are 3 man games so that shouldn't be a problem. Still trying to figure out what I will do next season...

Personally, I enjoy working both boys and girls basketball. However, I think they're basically two different games which happen to share rules. The mind set for officiating them are completely different. Requiring referees to do both is akin to requiring all baseball umpire to do softball as well. Some will enjoy it while others will seek to only do one or the other.

I can relate to that, and on the smallball side, I now only do Softball unless begged to work baseball somewhere. My reason is not talent or ball-quality. But rather a mix of what Rich said and what Jeff said. I have "fun" at a far lower percentage of baseball games than softball games... and I think focusing on one has made me better in that one... similar rules, but the release point and the action on the ball during the pitch is COMPLETELY different, and I find it takes me several baseball games to get back to a good strike zone there, while I can step completely unprepared into a softball game and call a good zone.

So I kind of get what all 3 of your are saying. Good answers and thanks for the honesty.

That might be an issue in some areas, but not an issue here. We have nearly 6000 officials statewide and there are more than enough to cover each gender regularly. It is just that the quality of girls officials are not up to standard IMO and that is more because officials can advance quicker on that side than on the boys side.

Peace

Very interesting article that bring up two related but separate issues IMO.

1) There is no question that 3 officials is preferable to 2. The girls coaches make contradictory, circular, and nonsensical arguments for voting against having 3 person crews for their games. It could be a Title IX issue but the coaches passed on the opportunity. Not sure what they're suggesting to resolve the issues they cite either.

2) The assignments of boys vs girls games is another issue and something I'm very curious about. In my scholastic association, there is no distinction between boys and girls officials. For the most part, you are expected to work what you are assigned. Our assignor does not like officials who turn back girls games or make it clear that boys games are all they're willing to work.

But the established top officials do very few girls games. We have some fairly good female officials but I think only 1 or 2 of them get any boys games. And those are few and far between.

This is my 4th year in my association. My first year I probably got 50-50 boys/girls. Second year 60/40 and last year roughly 70/30. Last season I got a boys regional semi-final and a girls state quarterfinal. This year, I got a boys regional final and will do a girls state semi. So it seems like I am moving up in the hierarchy but sort of have to pay dues with advancing further on the girls side first.

I have no problem with this and am thankful for the schedule I get. In fact, I will take a good girls game over a bad boys game most days of the week. But I do agree with some of what JRut was saying though in that I want to move up to doing NCAAM and working girls HS games doesnt help me in that pursuit. All things considered I'd rather focus on doing just boys games but that's not really a workable option right now in my association.

Ideally I think you should have a separate pool of officials for boys and girls. The concern would be having the numbers to support it, particularly on the girls side. But I think once certain officials realize they are not being assigned to work a lot or getting good games they would realize they could do better on the girls side. Similar to NCAA (and not saying that's the reason people go the NCAAW route) in having a totally seperate pool of quality officials.

Also, I think at least in my association they could do a better job of recruiting and developing female officials for girls games. I've literally seen some women who can get college games sooner than they can get GV games. Doesnt make a whole lot of sense.