Cal v Ore

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

looks like there may have been some intent there, but it will have to be more obvious than that to go flag 2.

Intent has nothing to do with the rule.

Peace

[The_Rookie]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And remember that the guys from the Southern California area that are officiating Division I basketball this season were officiating girls middle school games just last season.

How about the upgrade in game fees

[AKOFL]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Intent has nothing to do with the rule.

Peace

ok. What would make you go with a Flag 2 on a similar play? what would make it flag 1 or 2 in your book? what do you need to see? real question. no sarcasm. i just think intent can get you into trouble without contact. a punch or kick is flag 2 without contact. you intended to hit or kick that player even though you didn't thought?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

ok. What would make you go with a Flag 2 on a similar play? what would make it flag 1 or 2 in your book? what do you need to see? real question. no sarcasm. i just think intent can get you into trouble without contact. a punch or kick is flag 2 without contact. you intended to hit or kick that player even though you didn't thought?

First of all a punch and a kick are two different things and fit a different definition that could result in a FF2. This was a basketball play and a because all contact at the NCAA level with the elbows above the shoulders are FFs, then this just fits the definition. But this was not savage in nature or even out of bounds from a common sense point of view.

Here are the definitions.

c. Flagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal foul shall be a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
1. Causing excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball;
2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;
4. Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting; and
5. Contact with a player making a throw-in. (Women) This act shall also serve as a team warning for reaching through the boundary. (See Rule 4-17.1.g.)
6. Illegal contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively per 4-36.7.a.


d. Flagrant 2 personal foul. A flagrant 2 personal foul shall be a personal foul that involves contact with an opponent that is not only excessive, but also severe or extreme while the ball is live.

Peace

[AKOFL]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all a punch and a kick are two different things and fit a different definition that could result in a FF2. This was a basketball play and a because all contact at the NCAA level with the elbows above the shoulders are FFs, then this just fits the definition. But this was not savage in nature or even out of bounds from a common sense point of view.

Here are the definitions.

c. Flagrant 1 personal foul. A flagrant 1 personal foul shall be a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
1. Causing excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball;
2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;
4. Fouling a player clearly away from the ball who is not directly involved with the play, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting; and
5. Contact with a player making a throw-in. (Women) This act shall also serve as a team warning for reaching through the boundary. (See Rule 4-17.1.g.)
6. Illegal contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively per 4-36.7.a.


d. Flagrant 2 personal foul. A flagrant 2 personal foul shall be a personal foul that involves contact with an opponent that is not only excessive, but also severe or extreme while the ball is live.

Peace

agreed.

But if you see a player look right at the defender and swing his elbow in a legal manner right into the head that wouldn't factor into your decision? I open to changing my view on this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

agreed.

But if you see a player look right at the defender and swing his elbow in a legal manner right into the head that wouldn't factor into your decision? I open to changing my view on this.

OK. He looked at him and that is your justification for a FF2? So what if he missed? Are we considering that a punch too?

Do not make this more complicated than it is. You asked and I doubt many officials with any common sense are going to consider this slight contact as savage in nature. I have seen a lot worse that would never result in an ejection and not advocated as such by the powers that be. And really not trying to change your mind, you asked a question and I am giving you an answer. You do with that information whatever you choose to do with it. I know what I would call and what I would not call.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Ff1

[deecee]

That court should be a FF1. It is probably one of the ugliest and most distracting things I have ever seen.

I also love the leads Oh S@#$ mechanics to blow the ball dead.

[AKOFL]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK. He looked at him and that is your justification for a FF2? So what if he missed? Are we considering that a punch too?

Do not make this more complicated than it is. You asked and I doubt many officials with any common sense are going to consider this slight contact as savage in nature. I have seen a lot worse that would never result in an ejection and not advocated as such by the powers that be. And really not trying to change your mind, you asked a question and I am giving you an answer. You do with that information whatever you choose to do with it. I know what I would call and what I would not call.

Peace

point taken. on a side note, thanks for noticing my lack of common sense.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

point taken. on a side note, thanks for noticing my lack of common sense.

I do not recall that you were on the game, so you were asking a question if anyone felt that it was a FF2 right?

Peace

[AKOFL]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not recall that you were on the game, so you were asking a question if anyone felt that it was a FF2 right?

Peace

not that play. it was ff1 all the way. my question was if you could clearly see some one was throwing the elbow on purpose and made contact, ( similar to post) that would not be enought for u to upgrade to ff2. the contact would have to be severe in nature. just because he was trying to elbow him in the head is not enough. You cannot use intent to get that call. I get it now. just fail to understand why i have no common sense

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

not that play. it was ff1 all the way. my question was if you could clearly see some one was throwing the elbow on purpose and made contact, ( similar to post) that would not be enought for u to upgrade to ff2. the contact would have to be severe in nature. just because he was trying to elbow him in the head is not enough. You cannot use intent to get that call. I get it now. just fail to understand why i have no common sense

It is the action, not the intent or lack there of. The player can hit someone in the face with an elbow and it could be accidental and be a FF1 or 2.

And your lack of common sense is something you will have to evaluate. I just said that an official with common sense would not look at this on video and say, "That was a FF2." Now since you were not reviewing the play in this particular game and making a decision (same as me), not sure why the common sense part of my stance applied to you at all? But then again is the day in the life of people on this board, personalize everything.

Peace

[Lotto]

Art 2. Officials may use such available equipment [Replay/Television Equipment] only in the following situations:
d. Fouls.
1. Determine if a flagrant 2 personal foul, flagrant 2 contact technical foul or (women) flagrant 1 personal foul for illegal contact with an elbow above the shoulders of an opponent or a (women) contact dead ball technical foul for illegal contact with an elbow above the shoulders of an opponent occurred. When it is determined that a flagrant 2 contact technical foul did not occur but a flagrant 1 personal foul, or contact dead ball technical foul did occur, those fouls shall be penalized accordingly. However, no other infractions may be penalized.
a. When there is a foul called for contact, the officials, with a plausible reason, may review the severity of that foul during the dead ball period following the call. When the ball becomes live, there shall be no review of the made call.
b. A coach may request a monitor review to determine if any of the fouls in 2-13.2.d.1 occurred. When no such foul is assessed, a timeout shall be charged to that team.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AKOFL

not that play. it was ff1 all the way. my question was if you could clearly see some one was throwing the elbow on purpose and made contact, ( similar to post) that would not be enought for u to upgrade to ff2. the contact would have to be severe in nature. just because he was trying to elbow him in the head is not enough. You cannot use intent to get that call. I get it now. just fail to understand why i have no common sense

Yes you can. If there's intent to strike, then get the FF2. Or, if the elbows are swung excessively (meaning faster than the torso; using the shoulders as a pivot), and there's contact above the shoulders.

This play was a FF1.

[ODJ]

Seeing it live, first thought was a flop as Kazemi fell straight back, plus there was no immediate call.
Both L and T were straight-lined so they missed it.

With an injured player, just stop the game, to hell with mechanics.

Kazemi suffered a cut around his gum line.