Time out
 

White team has the ball trapped in the backcourt, Coach requests timeout as player makes long pass to front court. Official blows whistle and grants timeout. Long pass is stolen by Red player. Red team extremely upset. What is official to do correctly in this situation.

If the official granted the timeout as the player had possession than they grant the timeout. That is on the judgement of the calling official. Just because the whistle might have been while the ball in the air changes nothing.

Now even if the whistle came after pass was given, by rule you still are supposed to grant the timeout. It would be unfortunate, but that is the rule. Or you could do the common sense thing and have an inadvertent whistle and either give it to the defensive team or go to the AP arrow. Not saying that is the thing to do, but people suggest that option often.

Peace

So is there team control during the flight of the pass? does this give the coach a chance to request a time out?

You must have player control to call a timeout. And the whistle does not make the play dead, the play is already dead by the recognition of the timeout being requested by the coach if the player had control at the same time. This is the reason they need to get rid of this rule because all it does is make officials have to pay attention to someone that can request a timeout and have to figure out if the HC made the request as opposed to someone else.

Peace

Yes, there is team control during a pass. However, the rules require player control, the ball at a team's disposal, or a dead ball for a timeout request to be properly granted.
So if the official incorrectly granted a timeout while the ball was in flight during a pass, the rule is that the team in control receives a throw-in from the OOB spot nearest to the location of the ball. In this case that is where it was last in contact with a player on the court, so from where the pass was thrown.

Pay no attention to the above post by Rut that is wrong by rule!

When was the timeout requested and heard by the official? The timing of the whistle isn't the important piece of the puzzle and could come a bit later.

This is a gray area which needs an editorial adjustment. Nothing in the timeout process is on the list of things which cause the ball to become dead except the whistle.

There's the letter of the rules and there's the spirit of the rules that good officials understand and follow.

And that is why a lot of people do the consider this an inadvertant whislte and no one cares except for those that have little common sense. The NCAA rule is different for this reason.

Peace

True, but that's a different argument.

Under timeout rule whatever number, it says timeout occurs when the official grants and signals. The common application is when the timeout is recognized, as opposed to when the whistle blows. But there's more. It would help to have some more specifics mentioned. 6-7 dead ball does not mention timeouts. This almost came into play in my game last week. What if an official improperly grants a timeout while the ball is in flight? Does it kill the play? I would say not, but there are things a lot more obscure than this which are spelled out for us in the rules.

It is a basketball fundamental in the rulebook.

Peace

What is?

I cannot find the exact number, but where it says something like, "The whistle rarely makes the ball dead, it is already dead."

I do not have my rulebook in front of me and it appears to not be listed on the Rulebook App, but this kind of is covered under that list.

Peace

#16 I got that. But in the case of the timeout, it is not specified what makes the ball dead.

A simple addition to 6-7:

The ball becomes dead when a coach or player properly requests a timeout.

I do not think you need that much specifics. It is clear to me when a coach makes the request and you grant it the play is dead. The problem is it takes time to get a lot of requests understood.

Peace

And it is also clear to me that the play is dead when a foul or violation occurs and is subsequently called, but even so, these things are specified in 6-7. Why is the same not true for the timeout, which is further complicated by the fact that it can be improperly granted. A timeout whistled with the ball in the air could ultimately benefit either side, depending on what happens afterward.

I see your point, but with other wording or understanding of timeouts that have been mentioned, I do not see why this would not apply to a timeout. And I see no case play that would make us do anything out of the ordinary. If they do not make it clear that something does not apply, I would think this is just a simple oversight. How else would we apply this in the first place when we have to recognized that a HC made the request clearly when their player had possession of the ball. Just because we blow the whistle and at the time we blow the whistle we only apply what has happened (like the ball in the air for a shot)? I am not so sure that makes sense.

Peace

Common sense dictates that recognition of a timeout is almost always going to come 1-2 seconds after it is called (unless it is called by the player with the ball. Any other time a timeout is requested verbally outside of your view, you need to make sure 1) there is player control and 2) that the correct team is calling the timeout, and 3) that it is a player on the floor or HC. This takes time. we can't just blow it dead whenever we hear timeout as it could have come from the wrong team, a fan or someone else not authorized or permitted by rule.

If you don't delay, coaches and fans will pick up on that and use it to gain an unfair advantage. The defense could use it to stop the clock if they are out of position or getting beat 3 on 1 in transition. It makes sense to delay. If anything, you should also note the time that the TO was recognized and add that time back on, but no one does that in practice unless it is an end of game sitch. Just my opinion.

The coach isn't entitled to the clock stopping the instant he asks for a timeout. I have put time back on, but I'd never consider adding time from before my whistle blows - it's only when the timer is slow in stopping the clock.

Because BY RULE you can't.
Officiating would be so much simpler if everyone would just follow the rules instead of trying to substitute what an individual thinks to be fair.
Applying the rules is what is fair.

I officiate with the rule book. I don't have a bronzed copy sitting on a pedestal.

Agree.
 

I've been taught to when you see a coach requesting a timeout especially when running or moving to frontcourt to turn and make sure that coaches player still control of ball. Many timeout are requested when defense traps or pressure or ball has gotten away from player. There is delay but u get it right. IMO.

You, and nobody else follows the rules, 100%, all the time. Unless you're saying you call a 3 second violation at exactly 3 seconds...even if a player has just a heel in the paint. Just saying.

So this is ok? I had a game recently where a coach asked for a timeout. It took me almost two seconds to blow the whistle, cuz I was checking to make sure I could. The coach sarcastically laughed at me and asked "what took you so long, did you not hear me?" It was not a time-saving situation, so an extra two seconds running off didn't matter, but his reaction struck me as strange.

5 seconds left A1 makes a bucket to go up by 1. You hear timout 3 times quickly by B Coach immediatley. You have definate knowledge that the request was made at 5.o seconds on the clock. You turn and verify that it is indeed the coach who has made the request. Whistle at 3.8 sec and then timer gets clock stopped at 3.2. What are you going to do in this sitch? Would anyone put time back to 5 or at least 3.8?

If you see the time at the whistle, you can put that time back up.

BY RULE the referee should have the clock reset to 3.8, if one of the game officials observes it.

What do you tell the coach who says, I was calling time out right at 5 seconds. You obviously heard me. Why do we only get 3.8 seconds?

I'd have no issue telling the coach that BY RULE the clock stops when the whistle sounds, and he/she needs to account for the reaction time of the official when requesting a time-out.

Officials must observe several aspects of play at any point in the game and obviously not all of this can be done. There are times when an official's focus is on hand to arm contact, a foot or ball near a boundary, a pivot foot, or the ball near the ring which will cause some other action that possibly constitutes an infraction to be overlooked. This kind of prioritizing is a necessity of officiating and the better officials multi-task and make the best choices in what to watch and what to ignore.
So if I observe a 3 second violation, I most certainly will penalize it according to the rules. However, this would be a low priority item with me as I prefer to focus on illegal contact, screens, LGP, GT/BI, and the pivot foot. So I doubt that I will get around to noticing your heel in the lane for three seconds.

That is very different from what some have suggested here which is to deliberately and improperly misapply the rules because of a personal opinion as to what is fair or the right thing to do.

Exact Words ...
 

16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

LOL!!!

IKR.

Peace

Or better yet he calls a 3 seconds with a toe or heal on the line that only he can see and is not doing anything to get out of the lane. Because that is also the rule and I know he and no one applies the rules that tight. I just love the holier than thou positions some take when they want to act like they know more than the rest of us.

Peace

I think coaches need to be a liitle more tolerant of my reaction time, as well. But, I have no problem hearing a request, glancing at the clock to note the time, blowing my whistle and putting the time BACK to my notation. Of course, I don't do this at at the 2:23 mark of the first period, either.

I'm not going to punish a properly requested T.O. because I spit my whistle out of my mouth and couldn't alert the timekeeper. I think there is enough verbiage in the rulebook i.e. "the whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead", "spirit of the rules", etc.

In Georgia, we have a RULE - no free throws are shot with no time on the clock 0:00. You must put time back up there if you clearly heard your whistle before the horn.

That Georgia rule clearly contradicts Fed rules.

It shouldn't take 1.2 seconds (or two seconds in some other example in this thread) to validate the TO.

Certainly with 5 seconds left in the game, you should be attuned to the possibility (or probablity) of a request and be able to recognize the coaches voice (or maybe even be looking at him / her as soon as the ball is through the hoop).

Had a coach the other day yell at his point guard all the way down the floor, "Take your time! Take your time!". Then, he got mad and glared at me when it took a second to realize he had changed to calling "Time! Time! Time!"

He also got mad at my partner later when she didn't call a travel....fast enough. One of those weird ones that your whistle pauses while your brain says, "did he really do that?"

I must be missing something (besides my coffee). How is the NCAA rule different in this situation?

Last season I tried to grant a time out when the coach yelled "Five out" just as I passed in front of him.

Understood. Officiating here is ran by a former Women's college guy and have a lot of Women influence in other leadership areas. For example, we use Women's floor coverage area instead of Fed coverage. The time "remaining time" guideline comes out of the Women's side.

Fair enough, but the rule makes sense with replay available. Kind of. An airborne shooter could be fouled after the horn. You guys have to ignore those?

I'm not directing this at you so much as I'm just saying it but it is one thing to adopt some philosophies based upon your upbringing, so to speak, but it's another to flat out ignore rules. I don't like that at all.

Unless there's a monitor, then the rule as you've described it contradicts the NCAAW rule as well.

Tell the coach the purchase a PTS for his gymnasium and he will cut down on those seconds lost. :rolleyes:

This coach probably has a college degree yet feels justified in asking such a stupid question.

When it's coming from the head of a state association, it's not ignoring rules so much as changing rules. And presumably, Georgia has forfeited it's input to the NFHS rules committees for not fully adopting the NFHS rules.

Aren't states allowed to adopt their own rules?

If you have an inadvertent whistle, the casebook says you do not grant those timeouts.

Here is a play that shows what I am talking about.

Timeouts Not Charged
A.R. 155. Player A1 is airborne and momentum is carrying him/her out of bounds. A1, while airborne and in control of the ball, requests a timeout. The official:

(1) Inadvertently blows the whistle; or
(2) Blows the whistle and immediately grants a timeout.

RULING: In both (1) and (2), the officials shall not recognize this request. The official’s whistle is an inadvertent whistle that caused the ball to become dead. Play will be resumed at the point of interruption by awarding the ball to Team A, the team in control, at a designated spot nearest to where the ball was located. Before placing the ball at Team A’s disposal for a throw-in, the official is permitted to inquire as to whether Team A still wants a timeout.
(Rule 4-39, 4-53.1.a, 5-12.1.c and 7-5.16)

Peace

Yep, time-outs incorrectly granted to a team not entitled to request one are treated as IW in NCAA-Men's.

Is it not the same in NCAA-Women ball?

Peace

It might be but I didn't look it up so I didn't want to get attacked by villagers with torches if I got it wrong.

You know what happens if you inadvertently type something wrong around here. LOL :D

Nothing...I just edit others till I'm right. ;)

My God yes!!!!

One advantages with my IPad is everything is right in front of me to cut and paste and double check. Otherwise people here are funny like that.

Peace

But technology can only go so far.:)

And thank you for proving BNR's point. ;)

Peace

You set it on a tee for me. I'm only human.:cool:

And some people get off on different things. So I am not surprised. It bothered you, not me.

Peace

I wouldn't comment publicly on your ignore or change comment regarding the rules BECAUSE it does come from the head of our State association. But, our guy currently sits on the rules committee and his picture is prominently displayed in the rulesbook. I'm not really certain of his term expiration, though.

I find that interesting. Of course, it has never really been explained to me the origination of our rule, directive, guideline or whatever we call it when it comes from the State office.

What is the NCAAW rule?

From what we're told in Ohio, if the state changes anything that isn't a state adoption, that state is supposed to be shut out of the rules committee process entirely from the questionnaire to sitting on the committee. So I'm left to wander if Ohio isn't telling us the truth or if the NFHS is just full of it.

Charged Timeout, Ball Becomes Dead ???
 

After almost sixty posts, I want to make sure that I have this straight.

Most would agree that, in regard to a charged timeout, the ball doesn't become dead when the coach requests the timeout.

Has there been a consensus that the ball does become dead when the official grants the timeout, and have we decided that the granting and the whistle sounding occur at the same time, and that any movement of the clock after that can be changed if there is definite knowledge by the official?

A.R. 256:

In a game without a courtside monitor, the score is tied when the referee calls a shooting foul on Team A’s unsuccessful attempt:

(1) At approximately the same time as the game-clock horn sounds to end the game; or

(2) With four seconds remaining on the game clock.

RULING:

(1) When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, and signals for the clock to stop and the timer fails to stop the clock, a timing mistake has occurred and the official shall put time back on the clock as to when the foul was called. In this case, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game is over. However, when the official signals for the clock to stop and it is so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock, this is not a timer’s mistake and time should not be placed back on the game clock. When the official determines that the foul occurred before the sounding of the game-clock horn, A1 is awarded two free throws. When A1 makes the first shot, the game shall be over. On a foul that occurs near the expiration of time, officials must determine that the clock did not stop when the whistle sounded because a timing mistake occurred or because it was so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable to stop the clock. In the first case, time is put back on the game clock and in the second case, it is not.

It's also covered in AR 146.

And, I think it's for both NCAAW and NCAAM

I have a hunch that Georgia hasn't officially implemented a rule change, but instead are operating under a directive. Sort of like the various interpretations around the country that accompanied the elbow POE.

My question for Ronnie:
A1 goes up to shoot, releases just before the buzzer, and is clobbered before he lands. The foul happens immediately after the buzzer to end the first half. You're not shooting those free throws in Georgia?

Adam,

I like your word - directive. I BELIEVE the directive deals with "shot, foul, then horn". Clearly, we hear whistle immediately followed by horn. But, I'm sure it gets loosley interpreted by officials to mean "we never shoot f.throws with 0:00 showing on the clock". Thanks to your question, I will be careful on how I word this in discussions, henceforth.

In your scenario, most everyone around here would shoot them with no players on the lane followed by halftime.

I think so. It isn't dead until the official blows the whistle. That is when the timeout is granted. Any time that rolls off the clock after the whistle, could be put back on, if an official has definite knowledge.

Video por favor
 

Georgia/Ole Miss, 2:57 of 2nd half.

A1 elbows B1 to the face after time-out request was recognized but before whistle is blown.

Ruling: FF1 Technical charged to A1 for dead ball contact.

Don't know who's argument this advances but I know it is relevant to this conversation.

I don't like it one bit. Who knows if the official is or is not going to blow the whistle for anything. Players shouldn't be held responsible for guessing what the official will do. Until the whistle sounds, I'd say any foul that occurs is a personal.

Considering this play wouldn't change anyones thinking, would it? What if the elbow was before the whistle but after a traveling violation?

By rule, the request, recognized or not, does not make the ball dead. In practice, apparently to most it does. (player request a split second before landing out of bounds) I guess we all have to make up our minds whether this will be the case, but I don't see how you can have it both ways. Editorial clarification would be swell.

Point Well Taken ...
 

Good point about the player requesting while falling out of bounds. If he touches out of bounds before the official granting and whistle, most of us are going to ignore the out of bounds call.

I think this is one of those areas where we just have to actually referee. Not everything about this game is black and white....and insisting that it be is not good for the game.

+1

Peace

Agreed. IT's always possible that the officials in the game got it wrong (or that it was reported wrong).

It wasn't reported wrong. B1's team took the ball out at the division line opposite the table after B's free throws. If it wasn't a technical then B would have received the ball in the backcourt tableside.

It sounded to me like you were advocating the black and white angle here, suggesting the elbow timing in relation to the whistle was important. If a player threw an elbow to the face, what does the timeout, or the whistle, have to do with it. He should be prepared to deal with whatever consequences that follow.

I was referring to the other possible elements of the timing of the timeout call...I'm not treating the start of the time the same in all respects

What if the offense coughs up the ball just before you blow the whistle for the timeout but after you hear the request and decide to sound the whistle....and you do blow the whistle. If it is me, the timeout, in that case, began when I heard it with the ball in player control....even if the ball is coming out on my whistle. But, at the same time, I'm not coming up with a technical for a play action that started during a live ball but happened to get a whistle halfway through.

Sure. But in doing so, they risk losing their vote on Rule Committee rule change votes.