Post pushing (video)
 

Great video. You make the call.
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The refs on the vid appear to be calling a hold on the D. I'm more inclined to call this on the offensive player. He keeps the defender from getting high side by hooking him, then when the defender establishes low side position he pushes him down.

Hold on the defender...but I' could buy a hold on the offensive player if I saw the play from another angle...as long as one doesn't cop out to calling a double foul.

3 holds on the defender. false multiple foul. ;)

I'm not sure how you can consider a team control hold, as the defender clearly did most of the advantagous holding while the post player tried to get free. I usually like double fouls (they send a clear message: "both of you -- knock it off"), but not here. Defender was the instigator.

I wouldn't have a double foul here, I know that much. :D

TC for me. Hook and displacement by the offensive player started the ball rolling.

First foul on defense is at about 13 sec. No way is this double, and no way is it on the offense.

They send an even clearer message -- I missed the first foul so I'm going to cop out by calling a double foul.

"Hmm...that looked like a foul...but I think I'll pass

**Opponent now commits a foul in reaction to the first foul**

"Oh sh**, I should have called the first foul"

*TWEET* DOUBLE FOUL!

I understand where someone can see a hold at the :13 sec mark but I am not sure how you can call a foul here when the offense is backing the defense down. Sure we can all see the right hand around the offense, but thats a tough call to make.

The next series is where I believe the real call needs to happen.

That's too late, IMO.

+1

Right hand around the waist, left arm over the shoulder, and defender pulls the offensive player backward. That's the one that needs to be gotten. None of the rest of that garbage happens then.

I have that on the defense. Holding several times.

My question is what took the lead so long to make the call? It seems like the trail whose primary responsibility was ball here actually made the call.

Missed my point - right hand around the waist? Was that because the defender was backing into him? There is no way on the video to tell if that is where contact happened by the defender. Left arm over the shoulder? When the player moves from the offensive players right side to the left side, the defensive player reaches over the top of the offensive players left arm, this is not illegal. What's illegal is when the offensive player starts to reach to hold the defensive player and the defensive player than grabs and the pulls the offensive player.

I think the problem is that every official is always told "get the first foul, get the first foul" so now you are looking at trying to find that first foul at the earliest point. If each player had backed away after the 13 second mark, we would all say, "I am not calling that one" but since you obviously have something later on, you're trying to back up and find the first one.

Team control foul on the offensive post player. Never understand why we allow the offensive player to get away with murder and we penalize the defender when it gets rough.

Peace

at least they called 1 of the 3 fouls that I saw......

I've got a foul on the post defender at 13/14 seconds. You call that nothing else happens. Get the first one.

Yes except this first foul was an obvious grab of the waist to re-align the offensive player. It all goes down hill from there.

If the offensive player was the first to commit a foul I agree but this starts with the defense grabbing the offensive player.

It looks to me the offensive player clearly backs out the defender and then the defender tries to get around and then he is held by swinging arm to prevent him from getting around. Grabbing the arm is a reaction to the first action.

Peace

I think the defender grabbing the waist and turning him at 13/14 seconds starts the whole thing.

+1

Offense. The little contact by B gets played through all the time up here. A's actions are a foul though.

Holding a player by the waist and guiding them is little contact? By the time the whistle is blown its pretty much a double foul, but Im auto calling that hold in a Varsity game. Just like I auto call 2 hands on a player (especially the ball handler). I don't even entertain advantage/disadvantage in these situations.

Sometimes its best to call the obvious infraction and not apply to many different principles of officiating to stay out of future problems.

In these officials defense it is two man so that hold would have to be called by the trail who has ball responsibilities.

This is a great opportunity for the Lead to come over and officiate on the strong side.

I think I am going with Jetmet on this one, the first bumping and such is all incidental. First foul is when the offence, holds the defender from getting around to front. The second foul is on the defender when he grabs the arm he is being held by. Then, a double foul for the hold by white and the backdown by black :D Kinda wish the lead would have given a preliminary to see what his thoughts were on the play.

I am not seeing this wrist grab you keep talking about. I see a offensive player backing out a guy and then holding him to keep from getting around him. Those are displacements, not a grab that did not affect the movement of a player.

Peace

What was white's right arm doing around the 13 second mark?

So an arm around someone suggest that only a hold is possible? Sorry, but I am not seeing any restriction on the movement of the offensive player or being moved. Even in football where holding is defined as arms outside the frame during a block, it is not called until there is a material restriction of the person being "held." I would use a similar standard in basketball. Arms around someone does not mean it is a foul until there is an advantage and certain not one I can see. Maybe an angle on the end line would help me see what you are seeing, but holding means you are being "held" from doing something you were trying to do IMO.

Peace

I have to agree. We have to know who is initiating contact. When the defender switches to guard the post player, the offense creates contact by backing the defense into the lane. The defense tries to resist and is able to hold their position. The defender then tries to re-position to the high side and the offense again displaces the defender up to the FT line. The defender then tries to establish position on the low side and is displaced again. The defender is forced to hold as a result of displacement in the last two situations.

On this play, know who is initiating contact.

The L needed to be on this side of the floor to see this play.

Uh, this post is kind of a cop out isn't it?

+1

How so?

I've already said that I have a hold on the defender. But as you know, this thing of ours is all about getting angles...I'm just acknowledging that given a different angle, I may just very well change my opinion. No different from when one sees a block/charge play where we get the center/slot's angle and it looks like a charge...yet get a better angle from the baseline and are able to pick up on late lateral movement from a defender making it a block.

Who is displacing who? The offense is continually pushing the defender where ever he wants to and early on has him wrapped up.

If the defensive player was pushing/displacing that offensive player like that it would be called a foul instantly by most. But for some reason the offensive player is basically displacing the defender all over the floor and nothing is called.

My opinion, get that hook and displacement by the offense early in the play.

Hold on the defender...but I' could buy a hold on the offensive player if I saw the play from another angle...as long as one doesn't cop out to calling a double foul.

You are right either way the discussion goes. Defense = "that is what I said", Offense = "I said I could buy that" I guess our videos are of different angles because the video I'm looking at clearly has the offensive player displacing the defender and then using his left arm to keep the defender from getting into a 3/4 post defense position. That is the first action that I see could be called a foul.

We don't really know what had happened in this game so far, but if that post player is a legit player on the block the Lead should get into a position to see that play. If I'm not mistaken this is a two-man game and the Trail is looking at the on-ball matchup right?

another +1

I have a question for those that would go with a defensive foul. If the post player received the ball - a pass to his right hand, as he is holding off the defender with his left hand, do you think that would be an advantage?

No, I think he's saying a cop out would be going with a double foul. He's not trying to be right, just saying there needs to be a whistle and the whistle should be for whatever action the Lead saw first instead letting the hand-fighting go on for 10 seconds.

I guess you just interpreted my post differently. This play has already been discussed in a Facebook group which had some members advocating a double foul. My cop out statement was more to say call the first illegal contact in one's judgement.

And FYI, if my assignor said straight up he had a hold on the defender, I wouldn't try to rationalize an answer choice. I'd own up to having a foul on the defender and be being wrong.

Geez guys reporting fouls . . . making a judgement call . . . just mail in the 3 second call and call it night ;)

I've acutally thinking this has to go on the offense he's using his hands/arms to establish and create space first. If your going to get the retaliation you've got to go double foul if not, then get the offense early.

OK, I must have understood you wrong. I don't understand the last part about your assignor.

Hey APG,

I called my first double foul of the year tonight. Sorry man. :D

And yes it was a cop out.

Peace

Cause it didn't make sense. :o

If my boss said he had a foul on the offensive player, I'd own up to the fact that I was wrong.