Offensive foul / basket counts?
 

V1 driving to basket. H1 has position in his path. V1 shoots, whistle sounds. Official on baseline (O1) calls offensive foul on V1 and gives the signal.
Ball goes in, O1 waves off shot. O2 (at half court) says shot should count. The confer for a moment and decide the basket counts.

Yes, I am the coach of H. This was in the last minute of OT and was the last basket made, we lost.

Confused on how an offensive foul results in basket counting? From my understanding, once the shot leaves the fingers, there is no possession, thus no "offensive" foul.

If it was an offensive foul, then how can the basket count?

From my recollection the sequence was:
Shot, whistle, ball goes in.


Thanks in advance.

It would depend on the level or the circumstances. NF rules are different than NCAA Rules (Men's). Normally on a player-control foul the shot would not count (not offensive foul as there is no such thing).

The basket could count on a goaltending or basket interference call if the violation took place before the foul. If that is not the case at the HS levels, then the basketball will not count.

In NCAA level if the ball is released before the contact that causes a foul, then the basket should count if the ball goes in the basket.

Without knowing the level this took place it is hard to give one answer. But it sounds like something is either missing or the officials did not explain very well what happened.

Peace

If your description is accurate, sounds like you got jobbed, Coach. Mind you, this is all if we're dealing with a HS game, and I think the assumption on this board is that's the case unless explicitly laid out otherwise.

For the record, there are no "offensive" fouls. There are player-control fouls and team-control fouls.

No basket can be scored on a player-control foul. In this case, the sequence of events relative to whistle and release are irrelevant. The ball is dead the minute the foul is committed and no basket can be scored regardless of where the ball was (out, in, through the basket). An airborne shooter (by definition, someone who has already released his shot) can still commit a player-control foul until he returns to the floor. So, provided V1 was an airborne shooter, you got hosed.

But if V1 committed this foul after releasing the ball AND after returning to the floor (if he ever left it to begin with), then you're SOL. But then it wouldn't be a PC or TC foul.

Since you say O1 called and gave the sign for an "offensive foul" (whatever you consider that to be), that takes the scenario in the preceding sentence off the table.

So yes, there are (unlikely) variables where perhaps this was administered properly, but from the initial description, I'm leaning (heavily) in your favor.

The official may have signaled pc because it was the shooter, but it's still possible that he committed the foul after releasing the try and after returning to the floor. That isn't off the table just because of a signal.

Jr high game. Thanks for the correct terminology. The signal was for player control foul (just looked it up).

As Adam mentioned, did the foul occur after the shot release AND after the shooter returned to the floor (or never jumped)? If so, that would not be considered a player control foul and the shot would count.

The fact this was a JH game tells me any of these situations are possible.

Peace

It's entirely possible that you had "newer" referees at a JH game, and that one of them was confused by the correct rule and used the NCAAM's rule on the play. It probably wasn't the first time a rule was misapplied at one of your games, and it probably won't be the last.

Hearty welcome
 

Hello Ram: Welcome to the board. Congrats on your detective work for looking up the proper signal and educating yourself. You should consider switching to officiating and away from 'the dark side'.:D

I know I made this very mistake my first year during a 7th or 8th grade game at least twice. I know better now, of course, but JH games are the training ground for newer officials and players alike, so mistakes like this are bound to happen.

Hopefully after your game both of the officials dug into the rule book to verify that their ruling was "correct" and discovered the truth.

Sorry, but I cannot see anyone with any kind of level of basketball experience having to "look up" a player control signal:confused:

Just so ram understands the ruling here:

1. If the shooter is still airborne after release of the try and crashes the defender, then by (NFHS) rule the foul is a player control foul, and the basket (if made) should be canceled.

2. Once the shooter has returned to the floor (with a foot) he is no longer an airborne shooter. At that point, his crashing the defender, while still a foul, is not a player control foul. Since it occurs during a try, when there is no team control either, it is not a team control (offensive) foul. Thus, if the try is successful it will count, and the foul is treated as a common foul, just as if a non-shooter had committed a rebounding foul.

As others have mentioned, NCAAM treats #1 like #2, provided the foul occurs after release of the try. All we know for sure is that the official counted the bucket: if #2 happened, he got it right. If #1 happened, maybe he was applying the NCAAM rule, or maybe he just blew it.

Huh??
 

So you wanna bust my chops for doing a little gratuitous recruiting??
Wish more of our officiating brethren would exercise the same degree of inquisitiveness...

Inquisitive?? What's the big mystery? Not knowing the player control signal to me is like saying, "Well, I guess the one ref thought we'd scored a touchdown because he had both arms raised over his head":eek:

Bear in mind the OP is a JH coach and came here with a legit question, not a rant......
RIF

Off topic but funny - at least I think so
 

Saw a bumper sticker:

"COME OVER TO THE DARK SIDE. WE HAVE COOKIES."

Sorta on par with officials on any level who say they don't have access to the rule book.

This coach is way ahead on that measure.

Yes, you are correct. I should know it is hard to find coaches at that level in some places. First they look within the ranks of teachers at that school and sometimes end up with an eager (it seems in this case) if not experienced candidate. Hat's off to him or her for undertaking the challenge. Just keeping that age group behaving on a half hour bus ride across town is as big a deal as getting them in the right defense. I wasn't knocking your recruitment and should understand he's prob new to the sport. Just thought that knowing/seeing a player control signal was fairly basic and universal. Perhaps he's also coming along at a time when the hand behind the head is on the way out and he's had other games where a PC has been called and he's not seen this.

Most people don't call offensive fouls player control fouls...hence that's probably why he had to look it up.

I came to this forum looking for an answer to an officiating question / rule interpretation. Most replies were professional and informative. And thank you to all. I have poked around and learned a lot of nuances of officiating that I was unaware of. I am sure my visit here will make me a better coach. If nothing else, maybe I’ll be less critical of officials. :D

The following comment, though, I find rude and condescending.

I certainly would never imply someone was stupid if they came on to an electrical forum, for example, with a legit question and didn’t know that the cover of their “electrical panel” is actually called a “dead front” or that the “electrical panel” is actually a “service equipment enclosure”. Those things you plug your TV, computer, etc into? “receptacles”, not “outlets”. Especially if it was a new visitor to the forum.

APG is exactly right. I have seen the signal plenty, but have always known that signal as an “offensive” foul. (which I now know is incorrect terminology) :o and thus looked up "player control foul" to be sure that what I saw and what was posted here were indeed one and the same. In 6 years of coaching basketball, I have never heard anyone (official, coach, player, scorer) say “player control foul”.

Maybe I should watch more hoops on TV. I’m sure the announcers, who watch basketball for a living, certainly would use the proper terminology. Yes, yes… I’m certain that this type of on-air exchange occurs frequently.

Bob: That’s the 5th charge Johnny Setmafeet has taken!

Bill: Ya know, Bob, he’s really learned how to get in position to get a player control foul called. Randy Runyaover has commited 3 player control fouls himself. Those player control fouls are really making him have to play tentative on defense.

Bob: Yes, Bill, those player control fouls are also really affecting their ability to get into an offensive rythym. :rolleyes:

letemplay, perhaps you should come to grips with the fact that most of us weren’t born with your extensive wisdom and actually have to educate ourselves from time to time. You also may want to be wary of asking any medical questions until you are sure of what the phalanges of the digitus medius are for.
:eek:

Until now. Sorry. ;)

Ram,

With all due respect, that is the reason people are questioning your knowledge of the game. And yes correct terminology matters. And when you are asking rules questions, it is hard to know what you mean when you are using totally off the wall comments that might be used by commentators. And I expect coaches to know the rules of the game that they are directly involved in. It is sad that they often do not and it makes our job harder when we deal with coaches using terminology that it not correct or argues they know the rule and use completely incorrect or confusing information. I am sure if you were on electrical forum and used teams that were incorrect, while claiming you work as an electrician, I bet people would be concerned if you used incorrect language or examples. We have a lot of people that come here claiming to know things and when pressed clearly do not know as much as they say they do about the situations they were involved in or witnessed.

Peace

I apreciate the education. That's why I came here in the first place.
I agree wholeheartedly that terminoligy matters and I should learn the correct terminology. No reason to be rude, though. And I never claimed to know anything. Plenty of people will attest to that.

I said "I looked it up" without even thinking about it. I'm just trying to learn.

Besides, I'm just a coach and we all know coaches don't know what they're talking about. :D

Frankly, I agree that letemplay was out of line with that particular comment, but I believe he retracted after further discussion.

Just for completeness sake, there's no such terminology as an player control foul in the NBA...what would be a player control foul is termed an offensive foul. So I'm going to assume the OP is coaching under a NBA rule set. ;)

Not quite. The Wizards haven't called yet. ;)

And FWIW, I don't watch the NBA, just NCAA.

I think people are way to sensitive these days. People do not like to be told direct answers anymore and when someone tells them what they are thinking they call them rude. He did not call you a name or say you were stupid, just mostly pointing out your lack of knowledge based on the usage of your terminology, which is confusing to what really happened. We do not even know a lot of stuff by what you said in the story. Even if the official gave a signal, that does not mean that is what was ultimately called. And you have not yet told us what or if the officials explained to you what they discussed to count the basket. Those are very legitimate questions and that is all anyone here was trying to figure out through the bad terminology.

Peace