Did I bait the coach...?
 

BJV game this week. Good tight game for the first 2/3rds. Foul count close in the first half and into the 2nd half. Home team starts making shots and visiting team starts attacking the basket but the defense is great and I have several no calls as they force the action and just put up poor shots. Now the visitors are down 10+ and they decide to press to get back into the game. They become dirty and physical and fouls are called and we are now putting the home team on the line for free 1 and 1's. The full court press again and a kid dribbles and turns toward his sideline deep in back court and picks up the ball. The defender pressures him and just starts gently walking into him pushing him to travel or go out of bounds. Easy call and I back off the two run around toward the visitor bench to report the foul.

Coach "Todd, you are a bad ref"

Todd "Coach, did you just call me a bad ref?"

Coach sheepishly "That was a bad call"

Todd "Be honest coach, did you just call me a bad ref"

Coach guilty tone "Yes I did, I know you have to T me up"

I T'd the coach.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Hard time whacking him after that exchange - I would have probably said something like, "okay, I thought thats what I heard, I know my eyesight is bad, but if my hearing goes, I'm in trouble."

Rethink your direction?
 

Was there anyway to "run around" the other way so you won't be that close to coach? Said you were in bonus, so flow should be away from visitor bench going to shoot ft's at home end.

I really don't understand the whole "what did you say?" thing...if you heard the coach or player say something that warrants a T, then call the T...the whole making them repeat it and then calling the T just makes us look like jerks and opens the door to criticism that - as the OP title suggest - we baited the coach or player.

Methinks you should've whacked him immediately after the "You're a bad ref" comment.

If you think that's what he said but you aren't 100% sure, give him a quiet "Do you want to repeat that, Coach?". If he repeats himself, then he's definitely earned the T. If he doesn't repeat himself, you've given him a chance to get out of the situation.

Similar to what I do when a player drops an F-bomb in frustration at himself that's quiet enough that nobody else heard it except me. "You said 'truck', right? Because if you said something else I might have to issue a technical foul"

Agree.

The specific form of this baiting was that the OP did not let the coach back away from his personal comment. He knew he was over the line, and if you're not going to get the first comment, let him off the hook. Once he's "sheepish," isn't that the objective?

If you really did not hear the comment and feel it must be addressed, go in with something neutral and redirective, such as "Coach, did you have a question about that last call?" or "What did you see, coach?" If he's smart, he'll take advantage of the opportunity to discuss the play rather than you and your performance.

If not, then brew some. :)

+1

Agree with the immediate whack but I don't really like either of the other approaches you suggest. If you hear it you either address it or choose to ignore it. You address it with a T or a warning.

Asking people what they said, to repeat themselves, or manipulating what they said has a lot of downside and very little upside.

You end up in an exchange that can quickly go downhill and then you have to issue a T that's going to look terrible on tape or subject yourself to further unsporting comments on behalf of the coach and swallow your whistle. Sure, sometimes it can work to diffuse a situation but IMO there are much better ways that have much less downside.

Whack.

The rest is unnecessary.

I like that one. I gotta memorize that!!:)

Yep. I'd say there's a place for very limited use of "what was that", but NEVER if it's directed at you. If a coach/player says, not too loudly but loud enough to hear, an expletive or something like WTF, and it's more frustration than personal, then maybe it's ok to give them a chance to walk it back while letting them know they're on the edge of going over the cliff. But if it's "you" or directly personal - no repeat or warning needed.

I do not think you baited him, I think you just allowed more conversation to take place that was unneeded. Either address the comment or whack him. You do not need him to repeat anything if you heard the comment clearly.

Peace

Almost like I need to be more aware and when I know the coach makes a personal comment skip the warning and go for the T in this situation. Been working on my personality and better handling issues with Coaches. And it is all very challenging. I enjoy email referees and truly appreciate the insight I gain and the responses I get here from you guys.:D

+1

You even admit the coach "sheepishly" responded to your question. I would have left it at that.

Just like my T from another thread. I rightfully T'd the coach but I should have done it immediately instead of engaging him in conversation.

Coach, I prefer to be referred to as on official.

Hey, it's all about learning.

One thing about asking him that question: in addition to engaging him too long, it gives him a chance to say something even worse, which could cause the whole thing to escalate. Either T him or go "deaf." It sounds as though you really didn't want to T him in the first place.

That's great you want to learn and get better...one thing I was told long ago, was to NOT HAVE RABBIT EARS.

Doesn't apply here. The coach was talking TO the official and got personal.

If you ignore this, you are ignoring EVERYTHING. JMO.

What the hell is rabbit ears anyway?

So if I say something I am overheard, then I should expect someone to simply ignore their comments? There is a reason even in a locker room you are careful to what you say. If someone hears you say something, they will respond or take action. We really need to get rid of that way of thinking that anything can be said and it should be ignored if not said so everyone can hear it.

I know a coach would write us up if we were in the middle of the court and we were talking in a derogatory matter about a player or coach and then used the "rabbit" ears excuse as our defense for being unprofessional.

Peace

I was going to add that my "rabbit ear" statement might not apply in this particular situation...but, since BigT wants to hear opininions from other officials...I gave him one I heard a long time ago.

It may or may not help him as he progresses.

The point is...you don't have to HEAR everything! A lot of this means not to pay much attention to what the CROWD is saying...

You really can't figure that out Rut?

huh?

Rut, I gotta tell ya. I have been in a lot of locker rooms (ex-player, ex-PE teacher, current official) and I don't think I have spent a lot of time worrying about someone "responding or taking action" against me, because of something I said. Just be professional.

Why? I do it all the time...i.e. player cusses himself for missing a lay-up, nobody else heard it, I may talk to him about it later...but, no T, and I'd bet you would do the same.

WTF are you talking about? This has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

I did not say I could not figure something out, but it is one of these terms that officials use as a cop out to not do their job when things are said.

You must not be aware of the story where some officials were having some a conversation after the game in the locker room and then got suspended for what they were saying about the coaches and participants because they were overheard? I believe it was Alaska and the officials lost playoff games. That was probably 4 or 5 years ago, but that until you are in your car or on the phone you never know what people can here. And yes I am very cognizant of the loudness of the conversation or who is around when we are talking. And I am especially concerned when our locker room is right next to one of the team's locker rooms or when we are in a coach's office. I am not talking about something you say that is using bad language, just anything someone can interpret as bias or question what you did on the court, field or diamond.



Obviously you do not understand that what you say will be used against you and it does not matter who you were talking to as an official, so why would the standard change for everyone else?

Peace

I just received an official's manual in another sport and this is pretty much what was written there.

It is how I used to watch TV...eventually, I would add tinfoil.

Not everyone is as old as you or I, so they have no idea what that means. ;)

Peace

They can look it up on the interwebs.:D

Facebook This ...
 

Thus the various warnings some of us are receiving about posting certain things on social media.

Just like a coach should be professional when making comments about officials, no?

I'm a bit late responding to this one, but I don't see the OP as baiting the coach. Coach went over the line without any help. The OP is more like taunting, IMO.

To me, "don't have rabbit ears" means not hunting for a reason to pick a fight. If you have to say, "what did you say???", you're better off not having rabbit ears and ignoring it.

That said, I don't think "rabbit ears" applies to the OP. Coach said something directly to the referee. Asking him, "did you just say what I think you said" is inappropriate if the comment was T-worthy, and I think in the OP, it was. If it's a T, it's a T. If he's been previously well behaved and for whatever reason you want to let it go - let it go. Don't go in between as described in the OP.

All of that is subjective even when people say, "Don't go looking for trouble."

My point is if someone says something and you hear it, you can address it. That does not mean that you have to make a big deal about those things, I just think people use that term as a cop out to not deal with situations directly. Sometimes you have to risk trouble to accomplish things.

Peace

I agree.

Talking to myself...

..."just stay calm, Dan...stay level headed."

Thank-you for that, and thank-you for your insight...have a great game tonight and good luck in the postseason.

;)

ROFLMAO!

Welcome to the club, Dan...

And in response to the statement about the officials in Alaska - they actually were taped by an Assisstant Coach who illegally recorded their conversation in the locker room, so they were not really "overheard"... Things they said were entirely unprofessional and quite frankly offensive...

But none of that has anything to do with Big T's original post and question, so I will stop digressing now.

Yep, thanks Rocky,

I do remember "us", here on this forum, discussing this years ago.

(I just didn't feel like getting into a long, drawn out, flame war...at least not this time);)

All this doesn't change my sentiment that coaches don't get to loudly say whatever they want just because they were "talking to their team/bench/player/coach".

Agreed...

And that is the point. ;)

Peace

Lock it down! Everyone agrees.

Not really, but it seems to matter to some then others.

Peace

Exactly.

We are to act and be professional even when everyone else in the venue is not acting professional. That includes checking what comes out of our mouths in the form of words (includes eye rolling and sarcastic/baiting body language).

...I believe that came from a different thread...but who doesn't AGREE with that statement?

Wow...I really do like this!!!

...can I borrow this from you?;)

They do not overlook the fact we might have said something. I have known officials to be accused of things they did not even say, but someone overheard part of the conversation and started making accusation. Oh well, what do we know?

Peace

A poster named shades most definitely doesn't agree with it.

And I think it would apply to these parts of the conversation:

It's advice I've received from more experienced officials, assignors and have read on this forum in the past. And, it's served me VERY well over the years because the walls have ears. I've never had anything come back to me, which means I'm smart or incredibly lucky. Hopefully, both. ;)

So, run with it!

I hear you, Rut.

I'm very sensitive to how coaches, players and fans perceive me when I'm working. For instance, I was working a GV game a couple weeks ago in which the A1 was absolutely obliterating B1 in a mid season non game.

B1's first year head coach told me in pre game (in this game and in the first game I had with him earlier this season) that his team was basically going to play "shiddy" that night even though they had made some improvements the last month and a half.

I told him we officials would work hard as always and would be available to answer questions as always, then moved on.

During a late 4th qtr full TO, I'm chatting for a quick second with a partner about finishing the game strong - protecting shooters, rewarding the defense, reviewing team fouls, etc. - and partner says something hilarious. Probably ripping on me for something non game related, who knows.

I immediately thought "this coach or players may see us cutting up and assume we aren't taking the game seriously". So, I toned it down quick and we moved on.

Just have to do stuff with tact and be professional (not that we can't smile or even laugh occassionally). I believe it serves us well.

I do not care what coaches or players think of me honestly. I do things professionally so that no one can say anything I did out of bounds. That being said I like to laugh and have fun. Of course you do not have to go over board with anything, but if a coach says something to me I might laugh if he is being funny on purpose. I like to smile about a lot of things. After all this game is supposed to be fun.

Peace

No doubt.

I agree with this but the larger point I take from this particular thread is that you either address inappropriate comments with a T or a warning or you can choose to ignore it if you see fit.

What I would not do is ask a coach to repeat what they said or ask them what they said if I'm not sure.


Well said.

And being professional IMO does not include questions like, "what did you say," or "care to repeat that." That's unprofessional IMO and even if it isn't necessarily baiting it easily gives the appearance of baiting. And as we all know in this advocation, appearance matters.