Handled Correctly?
 

1 minute left in game. Home team down 4. 30 sec. timeout called and I am standing at top of key in front of home team's bench. Coach is in huddle talking to his players. Coach goes from talking in normal tone to looking at me and stating "If the officials blow their whistles" and then continues timeout. 1st horn blows I go to advise 1st horn and coach turns his back to me. I back up and wait for 2nd horn. 2nd horn sounds I go up to coach and tell him I'm not going to listen to stuff like that. I start to leave, he says he was just talking to his team. I stop and tell him "No you were not, both you and I know what you were doing and that is enough." As I leave someone on the bench mutters something about being a tough guy. I leave it alone and go downcourt.
Thought about giving bench a T but didn't. Thoughts?

You probably could have stuck him, but I would have handled it just like you did.

Rant: As I was leaving my game tonight the GV coach was telling BV players "yeah we got close and they called 11 fouls in a row on us. They decided ahead of time we weren't going to win. They did the same thing to you guys." I wanted to say 'yeah, I drove 67 miles and my partner 89 miles just so we could stick it in your pooper.' Sheesh. No wonder kids these days are growing up thinking things are everyone's fault but their own.

My goal is to NOT be the reason a team wins or losses and I have walked away from calls like that.

Good move RS.

That is not my goal.

"If the officials blow their whistles..." What does that even mean?

Depending on how quiet the crowd was, I probably would not have heard this statement (or part of a statement?). As a general rule, if I can't figure out what a coach is saying or implying, then it doesn't warrant my attention.

The tone or behavior might warrant a "knock it off," but the substance here does not, IMO. My usual response to "I wasn't talking to you," is "Coach, I know who you were talking to." That response is neither disputatious nor does it invite a reply.

Last night I T'd up my first HC this season for "just talking to his team". Only thing I did wrong was having some conversation with him before I T'd him. I should have immediately T'd him as it was the 2nd time he had done it.

Yea, I got the "I wasn't even talking to you" line a few weeks ago. Girls JV, absolutely packed, tight secondary gym, rivalry game on a night when boys JV was playing on the main court, followed by both boys and girls varsity games. Coach had started yapping about every little thing literally within 10 seconds of the start of the game.

After a warning ('stop sign' and verbal warning), coach said "This is the worst officiated game we've ever had". Whack. Then he says "I wasn't even talking to you, I was talking to my assistant." Of course. But I heard you. From 20 feet away. Not even looking over at the bench. In a loud, boisterous gym. There was some chatter about "get your head out of our huddle" but it wasn't as loud and I was moving to center, so I let that go.

He ended up getting a 2nd T and ejected in the 4th - on a foul that went against the other team! And then wouldn't leave the court for a half minute and never did leave the gym. Interesting night.

Forfeit. 5-4-1

My general rule is my ears dont work well.
For the most part, if a coach doesnt physically assault me I am
not going to draw any more attention to him or myself than is
absolutely necessary. It never leaves a good feeling for the remainder of the game or the ride home when I "T" anyone up. I fnd if you make eye contact and let him know you "could" have just "t'd" hm but didnt... it difuses the situation. And with a kid, remember he's just that. I usually quietly approach him next break in the action and say something mature to him in a warning fassion.
Of course theres always the inexcusible and the problem child whether it be kid or adult.
What I am suggesting is the only automatics are the physical violations, ie fighting, pushing, etc.

ah, I should clarify...he left the secondary gym where we were, but just went to the main gym. Didn't notice him till after the game while watching the varsity game afterwards. I didn't give the 2nd T, so my partner filled out the paperwork to the state, so not sure if he put it into the report.

Maybe not a "goal", but do you disagree with the general statement? I think our job is to be sure the better team wins. Not the team with the better record or higher ranking, but the team that plays better within the rules of the game that night.

So if a coach tells you that your F'en horrible and you would just ignore it? It is this type of attitude that makes it harder for the next guys... :rolleyes:

No one made mention of automatice T's in this thread, did they?

Agreed, and in this case, I'm not saying I would call the T. But the clear (to me) implication was that the T was the wrong call solely because it might affect the outcome.

I don't think it's our job to ensure any team wins. It's our job to enforce the rules equitably for both teams.

Wow. 67 miles / 89 miles. It's mostly 56 miles for me and that's for rec. you handled it correctly. we officials love and care what we do. Love this forum.

Your bar is too low - all you're doing is being the guy the coach refers to when he tells other officials, "But the last guy didn't give me a T for that." Don't leave messes for your successors to clean up.

Honestly, I think this is the root of the reason you're not calling the T's when you should. You should have little or no emotion regarding issuing a technical foul. Come to it with the point of view that you are merely announcing the infraction - just like any other foul. Coach earns his own T, and you should not feel bad or good about it --- just like any other foul or violation you call during the game.

Right. Sometimes the team that plays better in every aspect of the game (except final score) loses.

We ensure that the team that wins according to fair enforcement of the rules, wins. ;)

(And, for the record, I think this trivial statement is probably all Bob meant to say.)

then they didn't play better. ;)

Who said he dropped the "F" bomb?
If he drops the "f" bomb in front of kids then yes he gets "td",
Do you look for arguments? If you have been around for any length of time
you would hear what I'm saying. This forum is supposed to be kind suggestions and passing along experience to younger ref's. were all family remember, or did you skip class that night?
You have to "make" me T you, I don't go out there
all gunslinger, you wont be around long. Some of the guys I work with all the time we have a sort of good cop bad cop set up to deal with the hard cores.
theres no perfect way to deal with unruly coaches, just remember.

if you "t" a coach every time you hear "that call was terrible" then thats your gig papi, I just hope I dont ever get paired with you.

were on the same team guys

Yes, and your first post in the thread came off sounding like you let coaches run all over you as long as they don't get physical.

+1. If that is all I hear during a timeout and I don't know the context at all, I'm not even going to address it. Now if he is pointing at me or staring at me while he's saying it and trying to act like he's talking to his team but it's obvious he is talking to me, that's a different story.

Yes, this may be true, but it doesn't mean we have to agree with the advice given by everyone.

For example, I don't feel bad about handing out a properly earned T...sometimes a player/coach will not heed a warning, or they cross the line before they can be warned. I don't feel good though if I hand out an unjust T or don't hand one out that should have been assessed.

Really?

That's not what was said in the post you responded to.

I whacked a coach in a similar scenario a few weeks ago. Routine foul. Bonus -- we're shooting at the other end of the floor. I'm tableside trail.

"Where did they get these guys? These guys are terrible."

Whack.

"I was talking to my assistant! Can't I talk to my staff?"

"If I can hear you all the way down there, you may as well have been talking to me."

As I'm heading opposite to get out of the kitchen, I pass the center who's coming over and all he said as he passed was, "If you hadn't gotten that, I was right behind you." He heard her across the court, too. Who cares who she's "talking to."

You don't make it over the years being a gunslinger, but I'd argue you never really make it if you are a wallflower, either.

Back to the original post. Not sure I would've said anything there. But I wasn't in the moment, either.

And it's been a quiet year for me -- I only remember 5 technical fouls I've personally called. And 3 were on players.

WOW.... so out of left field...

IT WAS A HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION !!!!!

You said anything short of a physical attack was going to be ignored by you. So I was posing a what if.... You need to relax.

I am also not getting where your personal attack on me is coming from based off me asking a hypothetical questions

How many times does a coach get to say "that was terrible" before getting td?

Oh... and by the way... I have been at this 13 years and in that time have probably issued 6 technical fouls. Half were administrative, one was for an excess time-out and the rest were in wreck games

There's a progression I'm fond of for routine situations like this (and for this, let's assume that I'm stuck in front of the coach and can't get out of his pocket).

Ignore - Wave - Warn - Whack

I'll ignore it the first time if it's not over the top. Sometimes a coach engages mouth before brain.

Second time, I'll say something like, "I hear you, John."

Third time, "You've made your point. Move on."

Next time, I'm whacking him. I gave him plenty of chances to move on.

That's amazin so few in that amount of time. I have a policy " Don't break into jail ". Tech speak for themselves admin or otherwise. At the end of the day, the game usually becomes a good contest after the riff raft is eliminated.

Probably a few more as I just remebered the one last year for a clip-board sailing across the court after a charge call the coach didn't like :-)

But I can say that I have probably had no more than 10. For the most part around here the coaches know how to pick their battles

Last night? Twice :D

I read... ...as this coach intentionally saying this for you to hear.


I would like to know a bit more about the situation and the game up until that point. If you hadn't heard much from coach up until now, I agree with how you handled it and you could have even ignored it. If he has been howling all night, this may be "T" worthy.

I need more information, more context. How do you know the coach did not say "If the officials blow their whistles.....be polite and respectful to them and ask what you did wrong" or something like that. Sure, it seems like the coach is saying something negative about the officials, but without more context we don't/can't know for sure.

We don't know in this case, but I think the moral of the story is that coaches do not get to take free pot shots at the crew by "talking to my bench/player". I'm quick to warn a coach about doing that and like I said, last night I rung up my first coach of the season for doing it a 2nd time.

Whether you 'T' it or not, it's needs to be addressed in some way, shape, or form....IMHO

And I am sure you are a fine ref.

But as you said, most of us go years and only issue a few techs, Ive gone entire seasons with maybe 1.

My point was just that, for new refs seriously asking "what would you have done" we should point out to them that the absolute next to the last thing, right before allowing yourself to be physically abused we want to do is T someone up. Especially a coach.

I find, pardon my personal opinion, that 99% of the "that was terrible" type of comments are heat of the moment and rarely offend anything other than your ego.

Its a tough sport in that regard, with fans hurling their opinions courtside, heat of the battle reactions from players as well as coaches are part of the competitive close quarter nature of basketball.

A thick skin goes a long way in gaining the respect that some seem to think only T'ing them up will. If you are doing your job, and doing it well, that coach, the players and the fans knows it.
And will realize, quite quickly I might add, that his being verbaly out of line only reflects on his sour grapes...
AND
when you have finally had enough, and it happens, it reflects better on you as an "official" if you werent so trigger happy at the onset.
I guess Im saying give him some rope, if he chooses to hang "himself" with it then so be it.

jmo boys

I really hope you don't train new refs with this stuff.

Wow. :eek:

Was this said by a guy who was formerly a coach? Or just likes to buddy up to them?

So does taking care of bidness...

Good stuff.

I'm starting to understand that it's not just your actions, it's your entire mindset that is off.

Your point of view seems to originate from how others view you. And you assume that everyone else feels this way too. No one I know issues a technical foul because he wants to gain respect. The fact that you think others do is rather disturbing to be honest. Further, you advocate having a thick skin (in other words - ignoring when coach crosses the line ... unless he gets physical of course) in order to gain respect. Again - why? Your actions on the court should not be motivated positively or negatively by your desire to be respected by coaches. (And if we're being honest --- ignoring coach tirades or comments when you should be handling business is not gaining you any respect out there... it's gaining you a reputation as an official that can be walked on).

I do not care whether the coaches, players, and fans think I'm doing a good job. You shouldn't either. And you certainly shouldn't be advocating that others worry about it. The opinions of my peers, supervisors, schedulers, etc is what matters.

I get to the whack a long time before being physically abused. Those of us that officiate high school sports -- we all have a role in promoting good sportsmanship. If I allow a coach to continue to act up, I'm as much of the problem as he is.

Speak for yourself. I have four this year. Two HC (below), a player for grabbing the rim in warmups, and a player for complaining.

So the coach that threatened me with a bad rating a couple of weeks ago didn't deserve the technical he got? He wasn't anywhere close to physically contacting me, and wasn't even yelling for that matter.

What about the coach the my parter whacked for announcing the foul count during a FT? The same one that I whacked a short time later and ejected when he told us we're terrible. He wasn't going to physically abuse me. Should I have just laughed that one off too as "He's just ventin'!"

Remind me to stay far, far away from you.

...and I am sure you are a fine official, my friend. May I make some observations, just by what I have "heard" from you.

a) you may be somewhat intiminated by coaches and/or put them on pedestal

b) you are under 29 years old

c) you are not afraid to express your opinions

d) you are a coach's wife/or want to be one ;)

How many did I get right?

I appreciate the opinions. The coach had started in the 2nd half getting more vocal. If his player had the ball underneath he was yelling "foul". He was calling for traveling or some infraction when his team was defending as well.
I know he was speaking to me when he stated "if the officials blow their whistles" because the entire timeout other than that point he was talking to his players. I didn't "T" him up because I didn't feel the situation warranted it.
Ive only had (3) T's all year. (1) on head coach for ABS, (1) for scorebook, (1) in youth league on player that had bad attitude and fired the ball at me after a call. This is in 60+ games. I know I'm not thin skinned but I also don't want to come across as a harda$$.

You guys are starting to make me feel like I am doing something wrong now. I have 14 on the year in 24 games with 2 ejections.
1 game: 3 T's all players, 2 of which were double techs for dead ball extracurricular activities. Other for complaining player
2nd game: same as above, which makes six
1 book
1 coach for failure to provide sub.
2 on coach discussed in another thread for poking me in the chest then tossing the ball across the court (ejection).
The others just various T's all on players for p dead ball pushing, back talk etc. Many on these were while working with first year officials who don't know how to take care of business.

I haven't really questioned any of these except the flagrant which is also discussed in another thread.
The funny thing is, my first two years, I only had 2 techs total. Rough year.

The thing about Ts is you can't control the situations you get into as much as you'd like. Some years you get games where everyone pays attention to the warnings and you don't have to give many. Other years you get the games where people are too bullheaded to stop before they get Ted and you get a bunch.

I've had the same streaky-ness lately in soccer. After 10 years with maybe 2 reds total, I've had 4 reds in each of the last two seasons with each season featuring a 2-red game.

I try to look back and evaluate each T given or not given once I get out of the heat of the moment and see if I'm still happy with my decision. Usually I am.

@Shades, you really need to draw the line a heck of a lot sooner than the coach getting ready to assault you.

Address this behavior first, then you either don't have to deal with the later behavior, or the decision is easier.

Much of this depends on the level you do (generally, the lower the level the more Ts), and your experience (like with all fouls it goes from zero to "a lot" to "a reasonable number")

It's really the idea that when the adults cease to act as a positive example they will be come an example by having action taken against them.

Others have hit on the idea that if you one set of officials let the coach walk on them, the next officials will have it that much harder.

We as officials are tasked with enforcing sportsmanship and there are ways to get there but we as a whole can't allow that line to get crossed repeatedly without pointing out what is and is not acceptable.

Nope. Just tell him do what you think you need to do and move on.

A coach threatening an official with bad rating is definitely a T'able offense.

I think about my progression as a baseball/softball umpire, 20 years ago when I started I went from taking no action whenever challenged, questioned, etc, right from my first game when I missed a call early in the game and a coach told me I was so fat I couldn't get out of my own way (my partner did nothing either, I may add) and then went from a point where I wouldn't take even the most innocent line pushing comment to now where I have found the balance between what is ok, what is pushing the line and what is over that line.

Newer and younger officials take too much guff and don't know how to handle pressure situations.

For anyone who struggles with this, I would recommend checking out any books or materials on Verbal Judo, it is a pretty helpful communications tool.

Used correctly it can lead to some really good light bulb moments for a coach.

I felt just fine the night I double tapped an out of control HC and sent him to the bus early. I slept like a baby that night knowing I did what I had to. He never came close to indiciating he was going to assault me, but my line is quite a bit before that point.

I don't think there's ever been a T I've felt bad about giving out. Maybe I just have no soul.

It's just part of the game and part of doing your job. I work in communications for a small police department and arrests are rare but do happen, nobody gets all worked up because an arrest occurred I treat it the same way as if someone called out they secured a door, it's just part of the job.

Yep. The only T's/EJ's that I've EVER felt bad about are the ones that I failed to give. Those can gnaw on you for years.

Wow. What else do you let coaches threaten you about? I would expect anyone in my area to penalize a coach for threatening their rating or their partner's.

Yep. I have never felt bad about a technical. I have kicked myself for not giving one or waiting too long to do it, but I've never regretted one.

He threatens the rating, he gets whacked. If he's dumb enough to do it after getting whacked, he's probably making the walk of shame to the locker room.

Same goes with comments like "you'll never work here again" or "I'll get you thrown out of this conference."

Absolutely!

I whacked a Coach earlier this season for yelling across the court T me that he was going to send the game film to my assignor.

And the assignor backed me 100%.

I had a coach earlier this year tell/yell at me that he was going to report me to the state... for changing an OOB call that my partner missed. I was getting ready to ring him up, but when I looked back at him one of my partners was over there schmoozing and calming him down (with his arm around the coach, I might add). Let's just say that our postgame talk was not very fun between me and my partner!

I have since been blackballed by that coach for future years at his gym... gotta love small schools!

However, he can't blackball me from schools he visits on the road, and I get to see him tomorrow night! It should be fun!

Please update us!