What's the call and why?
 

The defensive post establishes position by the basket and has her arms straight above her head. The offensive player drives the lane leaves her feet and contacts the defensive player. What's the call?

Hehehehe
 

fan boy alert

The gray area in your description is "establishes position." Describe the play in a bit more detail.

I'm guessing the call was blocking and you disagreed.

Your description is very vague. Sounds like a had to be there. From the little that you say, the defensive player didn't break any rules as they were in their vertical frame. Depends on the contact; both severity and where the contact is. If it was to the body and was enough to displace the defender, you could have PC. If it's with the extended arms, sounds like a no call. If the defender established a legal guarding position with arms in their vertical plane, you cannot punish them as they did nothing wrong. Not all contact is illegal.

Probably nothing. Maybe a charge. Maybe a block.

The answer all depends on if the player had established Legal Guarding Position (which has a definition in the rulebook). You have not said if he had LGP or not. Or it is very vague if that was the case for sure.

Peace

Mregor thanks for the reply. Yes this happened 5 times in a game yesterday and yes I didn't agree.
I always thought if the defensive player was squared to the offensive player with their feet set and made no movement from their vertical plane. that they had established a defensive position and any contact initiated by the offensive player was an offensive charge. Maybe that is to simplistic.
I have seen the defensive players move their knees, hips, and arms and can understand why a block call was made. From what I seen yesterday the girls were still, no shuffling the feet or leaning into the player. A couple of the calls contact was on the body hard enough to move the defensive player backwards. The other calls it looked like contact was made on the arms. Are there other things officials are looking for when making a charge or blocking call.

You've uncovered one of the basketball myths, and that is that a defender must be stationary in order to draw a charge. That's widely thought to be true, but it is actually false.

Part of the problem is that you either are not an official or you have been listening to myths that do not apply to rules. Nothing in the rules says a defender must be entirely still. That is why I used the term LGP which is actually a rulebook term. Once a player has established LGP, they can move within some perimeters and not be responsible for the contact. And if contact takes place, it does not mean there is a foul on the defender or anyone for that matter. Also a airborne shooter or player is allowed to land where they were going if the defender was not in LGP before that player went airborne. So still I am not hearing anything from you yet that suggests a rule was violated either way. But if you want anyone with any credibility to say that "A player must be still....." that is not going to happen. A lot of elements to these plays that are not going to be easily understood unless you either get into the rulebook yourself or see actual plays and we know when LGP was established. No one here saw what you saw and all we can do is speculate at this point.

Peace

Yes, we're watching the defender while a fan is usually watching the player with the ball.

The majority of the time that I see fouls on this play is when 1) the defender brings their arms down and then quickly move them back to straight up when there's contact and a whistle, or 2) the defender steps into the shooter but they think it's not a foul because they have their hands straight up. Then, they stand there with their arms straight up, like they'd been in that postier the entire time.

Now, not to say some calls are missed but if you have kids playing or are a fan of a team, you're most always going to see things as a fan of that team.

I'm not trying to find some one to say that it was a bad call or calls. I'm trying to learn why the calls were made so while I am watching a game I can see it from a different perspective other than what I perceive to be the call.
I will take your suggestions of looking up the definition of a LGP and the rules for a charge and a block.
Thanks for all the responses

So you're telling us that 5 times in the game a stationary player with arms straight up was called for blocking?

1. Was she facing the offensive player?

2. Do you have a child on the team that got the short end of the calls?

3. Were there any similar bad calls made against the other team?

Join a local board, go to classes, get on the floor and make the call.

That will help you to learn and will give you a different perspective. JMO.

Don't be too critical of him....I've seen it several times in one game from "trained" officials. He may not be wrong.

Who You Gonna Call ???
 

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

A defensive player does not have to remain stationary to take a charge. A defender may turn away or duck to absorb contact, provided he or she has already established legal guarding position, which is both feet on the playing court and facing the opponent. The defender can always move backwards or sideways to maintain a legal guarding position and may even have one or both feet off the playing court when contact occurs. That player may legally rise vertically. If the defender is moving forward, then the contact is caused by the defender, which is a blocking foul.

It sounds a bit like there might be a principal of verticality question and I'm curious about two things: (1) how truly straight up & down the defender's arms were in each situation, and (2) what "straight" really means in these situations. I ask because my observation is that virtually no defender has arms/hands straight - perpendicular to the floor on these plays. The angle seems to be 15-20 degrees even for a defender who has not moved hands/arms down & back up as in BktBallRef's post but has actually held still. When I look in the mirror, I realize that my hands/arms are not perpendicular to the floor unless/until, as I raise them, I place some strain (minor but appreciable) on my shoulder joints. Is anyone able to give this any precision beyond you know it when you see it?

Did any of the plays involve an airborne shooter?

Vertical does NOT mean perpendicular to the floor in this context. It means up in a natural position that is not extended out and over their opponent.

Thanks for your reply. I believe that & trust that it is the only way that verticality can be applied in a raised arms/hands situation. The reason I bring it up is that I so often see players stand there with their hands in the air, maintaining the posture they were in when they were called for a foul a couple seconds before & that posture is clearly leaning or angled - over what was the opponent's upward path. I think many times they are honestly puzzled as opposed to disingenuous about the call. There seems to be a real disconnect between what they perceive they were doing & the true angle of their arms. My sense of this is that the disconnect is qualitatively different than, say, a block-charge disagreement or a player not realizing he's moved his pivot foot. My conclusion - working conclusion or I wouldn't ask the question - is that the rule in this situation requires a defender to have arms/hands up in almost an unnatural (perhaps "exaggerated" is the word) manner in order to be in compliance. And it makes me wonder whether the rule essentially asks for too much from a defender. So, as a practical matter, how much leeway do you give a defender in these situations? Is it purely a judgment call or do you have some kind of more specific angle guideline that might be useful to players? Just trying to coach the kids to defend without fouling, you understand. Many thanks.

PS
Philosophically, and semi-ridiculously, why should verticality be required in this situation at all: why shouldn't a defender be able to close off the space above just as he can close off space horizontally by taking a charge? Does it just give too much advantage to a taller player?

The actual wording of the applicable rules:

A player shall not extend the arms fully or partially other than vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arms occurs.

A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have a legal position if contact occurs.


Did you ever mention what level we are discussing?

And what were the signal given for the nature of the foul, if any?
(block, illegal use of hands, etc.)

Educate the masses
 

I was at a late spring party also attended by a guy who coached three of my kids at various levels through the years. Good guy, good coach, helped the kids a lot.

NBE playoff game comes on, we watch. He enunciates after a charge call "That's the difference with high school, in high school you have to stand still to to take a charge."

I sat. I pondered. I watched the wives in cheerful conversation. I listened to the banter of high school kids watching a basketball game.

I got up and got another refreshing Yuengling porter.

Should have bought him one too, that way he wouldn't be too mad at you when you tell him, in front of everyone, how wrong he is.

The rule, may be more or less strictly interpreted by some officials, but it should allow for a natural position of the arms, not one that strains the shoulder joints. It is pretty easy to differentiate between that and arms that are extended out in front of them.
It is judgement.
It would allow too much advantage to the defender. They could essentially hold a shooter down on the floor if they could legally extend their arms over the shooter. If you were to permit such a position, why not also let a defender extend their arms/legs horizontally to the side as well...taking up a space several feet wider than their torso? Basically, it is about balance between offense and defense.