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-   -   Elbow contact above the shoulders. (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/93445-elbow-contact-above-shoulders.html)

BillyMac Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:42pm

A Travestry ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 870893)
If we enforced all rules verbatim from the book, we would have 3 second call on every play.

What? Let me get this straight. Are you implying that advantage/disadvantage has something to do with some violations?

BillyMac Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:44pm

And It's Got It's Own Power Point Slide, Now That's Important ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 870893)
If we enforced all rules verbatim from the book ...

I can see your point, but this is not only a rule, it's a 2012-13 NFHS point of emphasis.

OKREF Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 870898)
I can see your point, but this is not only a rule, it's a 2012-13 NFHS point of emphasis.

I agree. The only problem is, there is probably 20 different intreps nationwide.

Toren Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 870894)
That's (stationary equals moving no faster than the torso) how we were instructed by CHSAA at the master clinic.

Correct. I didn't realize this was a state interpretation. In Colorado you can have a moving elbow and still call it stationary...go figure :eek:

Adam Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toren (Post 870905)
Correct. I didn't realize this was a state interpretation. In Colorado you can have a moving elbow and still call it stationary...go figure :eek:

We were told it was directly from the NFHS (powerpoint and a phone call), yet other than Washington, we seem to be alone.

BillyMac Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:00pm

It's All Relative ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toren (Post 870905)
In Colorado you can have a moving elbow and still call it stationary.

I blame Albert Einstein.

just another ref Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:04pm

POE: Contact with an elbow in movement should be an intentional foul.

State: An elbow moving with the torso is considered stationary.

Translation: We don't want that many intentional fouls called (me: it really isn't that many) and this sounds better than "Ignore this POE."

jeremy341a Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:05pm

I still claim if stationary was to include pivoting then their would only be 2 levels, Stationary and excessive. There would be no need for an elbow in movement.

jeremy341a Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 870911)
POE: Contact with an elbow in movement should be an intentional foul.

State: An elbow moving with the torso is considered staionary.

Translation: We don't want that many intentional fouls called (me: it really isn't that many) and this sounds better than "Ignore this POE."

I agree it won't be that many. It took me 33 games to see it.

Adam Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 870911)
POE: Contact with an elbow in movement should be an intentional foul.

State: An elbow moving with the torso is considered staionary.

Translation: We don't want that many intentional fouls called (me: it really isn't that many) and this sounds better than "Ignore this POE."

Then you aren't really paying attention to what we're writing.

BillyMac Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:26pm

Hold On For Dear Life ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 870912)
I still claim if stationary ...

Stationary? It's all relative. My little corner of Connecticut is rotating, east to west, at a speed of 700 miles per hour, while we're all on a planet moving at a speed of 67,000 miles per hour around our closest star. Is you head spinning yet? Anybody need any Dramamine?

jeremy341a Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 870916)
Stationary? It's all relative. My little corner of Connecticut is rotating, east to west, at a speed of 700 miles per hour, while we're all on a planet moving at a speed of 67,000 miles per hour around our closest star. Is you head spinning yet? Anybody need any Dramamine?

I agree to this and I am also fine with it being interperted as stationary. However if the pivioting elbow is indeed to be ruled as stationary then we do not need 3 levels in the POE: stationary, moving, and excessive. We only need two levels of stationary and excessive.

OKREF Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 870921)
I agree to this and I am also fine with it being interperted as stationary. However if the pivioting elbow is indeed to be ruled as stationary then we do not need 3 levels in the POE: stationary, moving, and excessive. We only need two levels of stationary and excessive.

Not true.
Contact with a stationary elbow( elbow moving at the same speed as torso) may be a common foul or nothing.

If the elbow is moving faster than the torso, but not excessive, that would be intentional.

If it is excessive, it can be intentional or flagrant personal foul.

bob jenkins Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 870922)
If the elbow is moving faster than the torso, but not excessive, that would be intentional.

Elbows moving faster than the torso is by definition "excessive." 4-24-8a.

That's (one of the) the problem(s) with the FED interp / wording. Maybe "moving" = "stationary" and "excessive" in one rule <> "excessive" in another.

jeremy341a Tue Jan 08, 2013 01:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 870922)
Not true.
Contact with a stationary elbow( elbow moving at the same speed as torso) may be a common foul or nothing.

If the elbow is moving faster than the torso, but not excessive, that would be intentional.

If it is excessive, it can be intentional or flagrant personal foul.

This by definition is excessive.


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