Speaking to a coach
 

I think this is my weakest area.

I coached for 11 years. You would think I could talk to them. I can't.

Help me.

Coach complained that a 5'3" player in the lane should have been called for 3 seconds because he was in the lane.

He drove to the basket, got trapped by 3 players over 6' and after a second or 2 passed the ball out of the lane. He was still trapped without a way to get out for another second or 2. So I will say he was in the lane for 4 to 5 seconds. Shot was taken by this team mate after he left the lane.

I did not call 3 seconds, as I saw no advantage to him ( 5'3" tall ) being in the lane with three 6' tall players.

Coach yelled and yelled about it as we went down the floor, for the little time I had following the ball down as trail, I explained " I didn't see him having an advantage, he wasn't going to box anyone off and he wasn't going to get a rebound" Coach came back with "the rule is 3 seconds!"

Next time down the floor, he is still yelling about that play. Mine you he had an 11-4 lead after 1 Q ( this was the 2nd Q ) and now we are in a 11-10 game. I give him the stop sign. He listens, but later he says " I want to know what advantage has to do with it"

He is a JV coach, I am doing the Varsity game tomorrow night. I have no doubt he will ask.

How can it be easily explained? Would you have called the 3 seconds on a 5'3" kid who is not trying to shoot the ball, but trying to get out of the lane? BTW, how many 3 second calls do you make per game? We rarely call them, again, it's based on advantage/disadvantage. If I have a 6' plus kid there, I warn him and I call it if they don't move. I'd say no more than once a game, but most likely once every 2 or 3 games. To me it's about flow.

His team went on to win the game by 6.

Here's are NFHS 9-7-1 and 9-7-3

Since there isn't a height allowance in there... :)

If the kid is still in there after 5-6 seconds it's tough to argue he's not gaining an advantage, regardless of height. Put it this way: his height didn't prevent him from getting there in the first place, did it?

As for speaking to the coach, you should know as a former coach yourself the less you can say, the better. If you'd stopped with "Coach, I didn't see him having an advantage" the yelling probably stops a little sooner. He may not have liked it but he might've moved on.

I can argue advantage/disadvantage. His is 5'3" tall, he is not boxing anyone out, he is not going to get a rebound from 3 players who are 6' tall or taller. He was trying to get out and was trapped.

That's why I didn't see any advantage to making that call. JMO.

I work with guys who tell me " we are NOT calling 3 seconds tonight, I don't care if they are in there or 7 seconds"

They are the R, that's what we do.

You misunderstand the role of the R. They don't get to decide what you do and don't call.

You're thinking too much. If the player is trapped in there like you say, call the violation and ship it.

And yeah, way too much talking with the coach. Since when do we discuss advantage / disadvantage on violations with coaches?

Interesting. I wouldn't be letting anyone (let alone an "R") tell me not to call 3s after 7s.

Would I have a whistle at exactly 3.0s for a 5'3" guy stuck in the lane? Probably not. Would I not call because he's just 5'3"? Nope.

So getting back to your question of how to speak to a coach: based on this, what are you going to say to a coach who complains about players of similar height being in the lane for seven seconds with no call?

Sometimes we can create our own "situations" by straying a little too far from the rule book.

The advantage is that team B has to have someone to guard him in there regardless. 5-6 seconds is WAY too much time. If 5-6 seconds is OK, then what is NOT OK, 7 or 8 or 9? Make the call and move along. I doubt the team A coach would have much of an argument for an official enforcing a clear rule.

When I was a coach, I always told my players, "Don't pass OUT of the lane." For obvious reasons.

First, the sizes of the players involved plays no part in this situation, in my opinion. You say he was trapped, so we take your word for that. Was he actively, obviously trying to escape this trap and get out. If so, he probably gets some slack from me. If not, if he's just standing in the middle of the lane, trapped or not, there comes a time when I call it. This is not something I usually count.

"He's been in there too long." tweet


If you're purely discussing the rule, the coach is right. A/D is not a part of the rule as written. I would not mention that to the coach.



At this point, it can't, and it shouldn't be. At most, a one word explanation here, (E NUFF) then whack if necessary.

Nobody makes a blanket statement like that to me about what not to call, especially if that statement has no rule support.

As soon as the coach comes at you with the "the rule is 3 seconds" statement, Ive got ok coach you have voiced your displeasure, we are moving on. then, since this sounds like a lower level game and i dont have the patience to put up with nonsense from a lower level coach about something as trivial as a 3 second call, i am calling a 3 second violation on him as soon as he has anyone in the lane for exactly 3 seconds. he will get the picture real fast about wanting the rules called exactly as written without any discretion on the part of the officials.

If someone said that to me, I'd ask him what other rules are we supposed to ignore - traveling, illegal dribble, inbound violations, or better yet - flagrant fouls?

Had a BV game where kid about that same height got callled fof 3 seconds when he didn't leave paint after passing ball. Coach in my ear joked his player too short to get that call.

Bottomline, it was an obvious violation.

I have had a similar "problem" speaking with coaches in certain situations. An honest personal review of my difficult situations reveals that I was having a problem because I was trying to justify something when I was incorrect. From your description of your scenario TerrapinsFan, that's what is causing your problem. You can't argue for advantage because there is no advantage to be considered in assessing this violation. If a player has a brain fart while dribbling with no pressure in his own backcourt and double dribbles, do we not call it just because he gained no advantage? Nope, violation, tweet, we're going the other way. Call the 3 secs and be done with it. Then your discussions with coaches become very short and simple.

Advantage/disadvantage concerns fouls, not violations. 3 seconds can be called too tight (like traveling, and unlike OOB), but if the defense can get a turnover by legally trapping a player in the lane, why wouldn't you call it?

If some OOO partner announced that "we" weren't calling 3 seconds that night, I would likely have 3 of them in the first quarter. :D

But the OP seems to be mainly about speaking to a coach (hence the thread title). Answer questions, ignore comments, enforce the 3 P's.

Not Intended By A Rule ...
 

(Note: Don't confuse advantage/disadvantage with the Tower Philosophy which is similar, but is not exactly the same as advantage/disadvantage.)

Prove it.

It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player of a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule.

Rules include both fouls, and violations. The "Intent and Purpose" preamble to the rulebook refers to rules, it doesn't solely refer to fouls.

I even got the late, great, Jurassic Referee to admit that advantage/disadvantage may apply to some violations, and three seconds was one of the two he put into that category. The second was a ten second count on a free throw. Getting Jurassic Referee to partially agree with me was definitely the highlight of my Forum career. That was the closest that I ever got to becoming an esteemed member, I peaked, flamed out, and it's been all downhill from there.

Because that was never the purpose nor the intent of the 3 second rule.

If the player is attempting to get out but is blocked by an opponent, I will not call 3 seconds.

To me, that's just a terrible choice to make on the court.

You are twisting two separate things together. (again)

Advantage/Disadvantage is written into the definition of a personal foul, though it does not use those exact terms.

"contact which hinders a player....."

No such language is used in any violation definition. There are different interpretations of how strictly to enforce violations, perhaps most notably 3 second violations, (and NCAA traveling) but these interpretations have no support in the strict reading of the written rule.

And Maybe The Powerball Numbers ...
 

The exact words "advantage" and disadvantage" are included in the "Intent and Purpose" preamble to the rulebook. It doesn't have a number, i.e. Rule 4, but it is an important part of the "written" rules.

Good luck calling a ten second violation the next time a player takes ten and a half seconds to shoot a free throw.

Is there an internet in heaven? If so, Jurassic Referee, please send us a sign.

Thanks for Your Support ...
 

"Purpose ... intent"? Sure sounds like a reference to the "Intent and Purpose" preamble to the rulebook. Doesn't the NFHS say something about advantage and disadvantage in that preamble?

Think about it a bit more. This is not about advantage/disadvantage, but rather about strictness of enforcement, which also applies to fouls. (how much does the player have to be hindered) Think of it this way. The 5'3" player in the lane was not gaining an advantage, so the official didn't call it. Probably none of us would at 3. But at 5, some would call it. At 7, others would call it. If he's still there at 10, probably most would call it.

The little guy still probably was gaining no more advantage than he was at 3.

I'm done with this.


I've never actually seen this happen possibly because sometimes, especially in my early years, I didn't even have a count going. But I'm thinking there would be few, if any complaints from anyone because 10 in this situation seems like a really long time to me. Questions on this call would probably be mainly from those who were not even aware it was a rule.

You know, this isn't about calling or not calling the three second violation. Doesn't really matter to me if the 63" player pulled two sticks out of his (probably fairly small) pockets and sat down in the lane and started a campfire.

It's about saying too much to a coach.

I didn't see a question in the OP. I'm guessing the coach was hollering for 3-seconds. Why even have the conversation? Simply let him go on thinking you missed it and keep the game going.

If he asks the question politely, tell him you didn't have him in there too long and that you'll look for it in the future. Then don't change anything.

Thanks to everyone for your replies.

The coach did complain and I tried to explain.

If the kid had been taller to box off or get a rebound, I would have called it. this kid was under 100 pounds and short. He was up against 3 players from the other team that were about 6' tall and over 160 pounds.

My point was to keep the game flowing.

Coach was upset because the other team had made a run and caught up. That's really what it was.

Like Rich said. I'm not even addressing this complaint. If he asks a polite question, I might say I was giving him a chance to get out since he was trying. After his warning, however, I'm not going to discuss it later.

The one thing that working a sideline in football (I hadn't regularly worked a sideline in over a decade prior to this year, when I moved to a new level for me) was that sometimes it's better to just pretend the coach didn't say anything. Many times, the coach is just venting some frustration and will move on very quickly.

That is, unless the official keeps the conversation going.

I thought the point of the thread was to have better communications with a coach. If that is the case, then the fact that you told a coach you ignored a rule because of the height of a player caused the conversation to go farther than it should have. If you don't believe that to be the case then I don't know what other kind of answer you are looking for.

You not only said too much, you told a coach you purposedly ignored a rule. Next time, if you really want keep the game flowing and shut the coach down then your best answer would have be "you know what coach, you might be right about this one."

I meant that my point in NOT calling the 3 seconds, was to keep the game flowing.

Oh, I understood that. But in the end the amount of time that was saved was offset by the aggravation of having to address the coach multiple times.

You know you didn't call it b/c you just wanted to keep the game moving. But you don't want to have an on-going dialogue over a single insignificant play. So "coach, you're probably right" lets you get away with the no-call without having to explain it AND shuts the coach down at the same time.

Agreed. That's the sort of vindictive officiating that will relegated a guy to middle school blowouts and YMCA games.

I remember during my first or second year officiating, one of the veteran members here on the forum posted a list of various responses to use when it might be necessary/appropriate/good management to address a comment(s) from a coach.

It was probably posted back in the 09-10 season and I found it extremely helpful in developing that portion of my game management.

If anyone can search that post, it may be a good time to re-post it given the title of this thread.

Communication With Coaches ...
 

General Techniques:

Statements by coaches don’t normally need a response. Answer questions, not statements.
Let the coach ask their question first, before speaking. Be a responder, not an initiator.
Most coaches will have questions when they believe the officials have missed an obvious call.
Having the officials in closer proximity often calms down the coach.
Be in control and speak in calm, easy tones. Be aware of your body language; maintain positive and confident
body language.
Make eye contact with the coach when the situation allows.
Do not try to answer a question from an out of control coach; deal with the behavior first.
If you’ve missed a call or made a mistake; admit it. This technique can only be used sparingly, perhaps
once a game.
Don’t bluff your way through a call.
Do not ignore a coach.

Specific Communication Examples:

Coach sees the play very differently than the official:
“Coach, if that’s the way it happened/what you saw, then I must have missed it. I’ll take a closer look next
time.”
“Coach, I understand what you’re saying, however, on that play I didn’t see it that way. I’ll keep an eye for it
on both ends.”
“Coach, we’ll watch for that on both ends.”
“Coach, I had a good look at that play and here’s what I saw (short explanation).”
“Coach, I was in a good position to make that call.”
“Coach, I understand what you’re saying, but my angle was different than yours.”
“Coach, I had a great look at that play, but I understand your question and I’ll have the crew keep an eye on it.”
“Coach, I had that play all the way and made the call.”

Coach believes you’re missing persistent illegal acts by the other team:
“OK coach, we’ll watch for that.”
“Coach, we are watching for that on both ends of the court.”
“Coach, I hear you, and I’ll work hard to get a better view.”

Coach is questioning a partner’s call:
“Coach, that’s a good call, as a crew we have to make that call.”
“We’re calling it on both ends.”
“Coach, he/she was right there and had a great angle.”
“Coach, we’re not going there, I can’t let you criticize my partner.”
“Coach, he/she had a great look, but if you have a specific question, you’ll have to ask him/her, he/she’ll be
over here in just a minute.”
“Tell me, I’ll ask him.”

Coach is very animated and gesturing:
“Coach, I’m going to talk with you and answer your questions, but you must put your arms down/stop the
gesturing.”
“Coach, please put your arms down. Now, what’s your question?”

Coach is raising their voice asking the question:
“Coach, I can hear you. I’m standing right here, you don’t need to raise your voice.”
"Coach, I need you to stop raising your voice and just ask your question calmly.”
“Coach, stop yellng across the court, I’m right here.”

Coach is commenting on something every time down the floor:
“Coach, I need you to pick your spots, we can’t have a comment on every single call that is being made.”
"Coach, I can't have you officiating this game."
"Coach, I understand you're not going to agree with all of our calls, but I can't have you question every
single one."
"Coach, if you have a question, I'll answer if I have a chance, but we aren't going to have these constant
comments."
“Coach, I will listen to you, but you can’t officiate every play.”

Coach has a good point and might be right.
“You’ve got a good point and might be right about that play.”
“You might be right, that’s one we’ll talk about at halftime/intermission/the next time out.”
“You might be right; I may not have had the best angle on that play.”
“Coach, I missed it.”

Coach is venting, make editorial comments:
“I hear what you’re saying”
“I hear what you’re saying, but we’re moving on.”

Coach just won’t let it go:
“Coach, I hear you, but we’re moving on.”
“Coach, enough.”
“I’ve heard enough and that’s your warning.”

Original Source: Topeka (Kansas) Officials Association

Great Stuff BillyMac, very helpful.

Probably sounds to the coach like you're still trying to coach, and it's understandable he wouldn't appreciate it. If a ref had told you that in your coaching days, would you? A kid CAN box out even if he's 5-3, and little guys quicker to the ball CAN outrebound bigger guys.

"He was trying to leave the lane and was impeded, so I held off" is a plausible explanation that's a lot easier to hear.

My goodness...bless the dead. Now can you let him rest in peace?

The philosophy of only answering questions should be changed. Some comments must be addressed before a situations gets to the point of causing the almighty stop sign to come out or a technical foul. Also, repeated questions may become an issue also.

Could this kid make a layup? If so, allowing him to remain in the paint without a violation could certainly cause the defense to leave one or two defenders near him. One defender that had to account for him and adjust their defensive position even one step from what it would be otherwise is a disadvantage to the defense.

Game flow is overrated, overstated and overused. Call what needs to be called.

I agree, but I'd have to see how the coach is complaining / commenting. I'm going to let him repeat himself at least once or twice before addressing it -- perhaps he'd just say something once and move off it.

I think communicating with coaches is among the hardest aspects of officiating to grasp let alone master.

I have a couple nuggets of advice based on your situation:

1. We (officials) do not choose what to call... we call what we see occur in the game. We referee all players to the same standard regardless of height, position, or skill level (insert the NBA joke here). So when you mention no advantage gained to the coach, you cannot win.

2. At lower levels, you will have less experienced coaches that will whine for calls like 3 seconds (much like unknowledgeable fans do). I would use it as an opportunity to communicate with the coach. You never know, he could be taking over the varsity team in the near future. You can gain rapport & credibility with him that can start the all-important trust process.

There was way too much conversation about a violation IMO. Even if you didn't call if for that reason, doubt I would have said that much about why I did not call a violation. Even on a foul I am only going to say so much. You will never win with a coach that has a bias to their team and if you called that against their team they would find a reason to not have you call that. Leave the conversations for the bigger things in the game, not a 3 second call made or missed.

Peace

Terrapins Fan, I agree that Advantage/Disadvantage is a factor in the 3 second call, ie. I'm not going to call anyone for 3 seconds because they are hovering at the free throw line with one foot in the lane. Here is where the wheels come off:

1) The player is triple teamed in the lane followed by kick out pass. If that leads to an immediate shot then we definitely had an advantage created for the offense.
2) "I didn't have any advantage" is where the conversation with the coach needs to end. Ongoing descriptions of block out plays and height isn't going to lead to anything good.
3) Talking about the play with a coach for 3 trips is not going to help you. Short conversations and small words will get you out of this much faster. If he persists your stop sign should mean just that, "STOP". Otherwise he has free reign to walk right through it.

If you have the rules on your side argue the rules. If you have the facts on your side argue the facts. In this case I don't know that you had either. He had you on the letter of the law and, if we are to reward good defensive play, he had you on the spirit of the law. This conversation for me would be "I didn't see what you have." End of conversation.

Excellent. I'll remember this one.

You can argue it all you like... but it doesn't make you right. You don't KNOW anything you mention above. You may suspect it, and you may be right most of the time... but he was there - in a spot that cannot therefore be occupied by the defense. You don't KNOW he wasn't going to get the rebound - and I'm sure you've seen shorter players rebound with a taller opponent nearby.

Further... rebounding is not the only thing that happens down low, and not the only thing that the offense can't camp in there to do. The mere fact that the player is where he's not allowed to be is the violation - since he's where he is (as is the player guarding him), defenders cannot proceed through him to get to where they want to go.

So the idea that he has NO advantage by remaining where he's not allowed to be is untrue.

PS - I would stay away from arguing advantage/disadvantage with a coach most of the time (at least in basketball... I can see discussing adv/disad with a coach in football, however). They do not referee - they do not understand that as well as we do. And they see the rule as written, in black and white.

Thanks. I'm gald you like it.

I Already Know, I'm A Bad Boy ...
 

What? Three seconds is a violation, not a foul. Are you implying that advantage/disadvantage may be used for some violations?

Shocked! Shocked I am to discover there is gambling going on in this establishment!

Next I will tell you that the black line all the way around the outside is only a suggestion.