Possible CE, MN/MSU
 

Foul called in what looked like it should have been a Team Control situation, 1:45 left in the first half. They shot 1 & 1.

Anyone else see it? APG, a video would be great here.

you nailed it - they didnt

Saw the play as well, and thought the same thing initially. Would like to see a replay though.

I ran the DVR back. While a ball is in flight from a throw-in for Minnesota, a Minnesota player commits a foul.

Ce
 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5HC8CiFXrR8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That is a misapplication of the rules, not a correctable error per say. Now unless they noticed this in a timely matter it could be corrected under the CE rule, but this is not a typical CE situation because they were shooting when by rule it was a TC foul.

Peace

"Awarding an unmerited FT" is a CE.

It is not my point. They did not have a CE, they missapplied the rule. They should know it is a TC foul you never shoot FTs on and should know this was a TC foul even if the player had grabbed the ball. They were on offense.

Peace

They misapplied a rule, if you want to put it that way, which resulted in a correctable error. What is your point?

It did not result in anything. They play stood from all accounts. That is the point.

Peace

But it was still a correctable error. They just failed to correct it.

I think you're missing the big picture here. Everyone acknowledges the officials incorrectly awarded free throws. The teaching point here is the Correctable Error...When and How this error can be corrected.

Hypothetically, what if Mich St makes the first free throw and misses the second with the subsequent Mich St foul? After the whistle for the foul, if the officials realized they incorrectly awarded the free throws, they would take the point off the board for the first free throw but count the subsequent Mich State foul after the miss (as it was not part of the free throw). Minnesota would shoot free throw(s) if in the bonus or take the ball OOB if not in the bonus. But since he missed the free throw, the officials were saved...

Case play 2.10.1.

Sorry to pile on, but awarding unmerited free throws as a result of a team control foul is a correctable error. Even if they didn't recognize it as a team control foul when the foul was called, they can still correct this within the window.

Doesn't surprise me when these are missed, BTW.

And I think you guys are missing the point I am making. It is only a correctable error if they invoke that rule. It is a misapplication of the rules to even be in that situation. This is not like a guy that was sent to the line erroneously like awarding points he did not score or they gave a 3 points instead of a 2. This was simply a misapplication. Now if they caught it in time then they could correct the situation by that rule, but that is not what they did in the end. Heck you do not even need to invoke the CE rule at all if someone says, "Hey, this was a TC foul and we do not shoot these." They did not do anything but shoot FTs on a situation which clearly. I do not consider that invoking the CE rule, I consider that enforcing the rule properly. They did not come back later and then put the ball where they interrupted the play to correct the mistake.

This happen to me last post season where there was a loose ball foul called and I initially was going to send the fouled player to the line. Then my partner quickly came over and said, "They were in TC right?" The light bulb came on and we put the ball at the out of bounds spot. We did not use 2-10, it was making sure we applied the rule properly. That was not done here and 2-14 (I believe) was not used.

It might be semantics, but this is not a CE situation, this is a complete misapplication of a very basic rule. This clearly was in the TC window off a throw-in and the reason the NF rule was changed to clarify when a TC foul will be applied on a throw-in.

Peace

I think you're right.

We're missing the point you're making.

Since you "fixed" the problem before the FTs, it wasn't a CE situation.

In this game, the FT's were shot, so it was a CE situation (or at least a potential CE situation -- maybe that's your point)

No, the point is they applied a rule inproperly. They could have corrected it, but they did not.

Peace

So if they don't correct it, it isn't a correctable error?

If a guy takes 7 steps with no whistle, it wasn't a travel?

if they had corrected the error of awarding an unmerited free throw, they should have also ignored the foul on the msu player during the free throw as it was not intentional or flagrant.

Not the case, do you know why?

No matter how you dice it, this is just incorrect.

Incorrect statement...as soon as the ball came off the rim (and would not score) the free throw ended, so the foul would be counted.

That was a correctable error that went uncorrected. The fact that it didn't get corrected doesn't change what it was.

And what actions would you have done to 'correct' the original error at this point?

This is one of most stupidly written and applied rules in the book.

I have this situation where the wrong shooter shot and we wiped out the rebounding foul. Don't feel bad about doing it.

Common Foul During An Unmerited Free Throw ???
 

2-10-4: If the error is a free throw by the wrong player or at the wrong
basket, or the awarding of an unmerited free throw, the free throw and the activity
during it, other than unsporting, flagrant, intentional or technical fouls, shall be
canceled.

This part of the correctable error rule always seems to confuse me. Could someone please provide a scenario in which a common foul would be canceled during the unmerited free throw.

So, is this another one of those CE situation where we blame a coach for not 'pointing it out' to us.
:rolleyes:

A1 goes to the line for an unmerited 1-1. While the ball is bouncing on the rim, A3 pushes B4 to get the rebound. The table now notifies the officials that the foul was B's 6th.

Always Listen To bob ...
 

Cool. Since the ball is bouncing on the rim, and has a chance to go in, the free throw has not ended. I think that I got a question about a situation like this, but on a play where the free throw had already ended, wrong on a recent IAABO Refresher Exam. Thanks.

I don't agree with making up rules to suit my personal opinion about a rule. That's a slippery slope. Were your partners happy about wiping out the rebounding foul? If so, now you have three officials on the court that have decided they will interpret the rules to suit themselves. Not a good situation.

Just curious...
 

Instead of the foul on the rebound, let's say the rebounding team advanced the ball down the court and scored at which time the error was recognized. Would you have cancelled the basket?

It was an incorrectly applied rule that created a CE situation...and isn't that how all CE situations are created?

The error - awarding an unmerited FT - could have been corrected until the first dead ball after the clock properly started.

The interesting thing is we don't see the moment the window closed on this clip. The clock didn't start on the foul after the FT, nor should it have since the foul was commited prior to any player touching a live ball while it was inbounds.

The next dead ball after the clock properly started came 28 seconds in game time later. Minn #55 shot - and missed - the front end of his one-and-one then there was a foul commited by MSU with 1:17 left in the half.

Correctable Error ...
 

I was the U2 so I didn't make the decision. But I had no problem with it. And my career didn't get halted by it.

And you never answered my question. In the OP's situation what is actually going to be done by the officials to correct the error?

I do not consider a completely kicked rule the same as a mistake in whether we shoot bonus or not. THe officials should know better and not even be shooting here.

And I stand by my original statement, this was a kicked rule. It could have been corrected under the CE rule or it could have more than likely been corrected by someone say, "Hey that was a TC foul." Nobody said anything obviously.

Peace

Willing to cancel foul if next foul occurs during rebounding action. And wish rule was written to legally do so. Otherwise in the case of an unmerited free throw what are we really correcting in the OP.

I'm not some 1st year JV official who is ignorant of the rule. Unlike some folks here I acknowdge when I'm doing something outside the letter of the rules and I'm willing to eat the consequences if there are any.

Nope. All action after the FT would stand, including time consumed, points scored, and fouls committed. Then the ball would be put back into play at the POI, which would be a throw-in to the team that didn't make that last basket from anywhere along that end line.

So essentially all you're doing is what if the CE was an unmerited free throw that was missed?

Yep. But if it were my game, it'd help save some of what little a$$ I have left with my supervisor, at least (and that FT shooter's percentage for stat purposes).

And Michigan State missed the FT and did not make the point or have a chance at the second point so the discussion point is made even though the FT point is not made but should not have been even attempted and that is the point that Rut was making and others were making for a different reason but the points are both good! Kumbaya

Then the question I have now, how do you have a CE on a missed FT? You are not taking off points. You cannot give the ball back to Minnesota at the spot of the foul. So how is this really a CE situation at all?

Peace

That's what makes it an error.

Whether the free throw is made or missed has no bearing on whether or not it was a correctable error.

Yes it does. You cannot invoke 2-10 or 2-12 (NCAA Rule) unless you are counting or cancelling something.

BTW, here is a note out of the NCAA Rulebook.

Note: In order for this to be a correctable error, the official must have erred in counting or canceling a successful try for goal according to a rule (i.e., after basket interference or goaltending, incorrectly counting or failing to cancel a score or counting a three-point goal instead of a two- point goal). A correctable error does not involve an error in judgment.

No points were scored or needed to be cancelled.

Peace

The above note goes with:

e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.

It has nothing to do with the play at hand.

I agree. You are correct.

Calling a foul on the team in control but not penalizing it correctly is not an error in judgment but is a correctable error. What would not correctable is not calling an infraction that should be called or calling an infraction that wasn't....such as calling GT when it shouldn't have been GT. The points that come from that are not a correctable error because the GT call is a judgment call. In this case, it was call correctly made but unmerited FTs were awarded.

In this case, even though it was a CE, correcting it would have simply involved removing the attempt from the stat book. Irrelevant to us, but there's nothing else to do.

Isn't that what I said?;)

Yeah, sorry. :) hadn't read all the posts yet.