Hadn't Seen this Before
 

I know the definition of the time-out area, so I don't need that posted, but I saw something odd during a BV tourney championship tonight and am curious about opinions.

1. 60-sec timeout, A is still in huddle standing on floor at first horn, B breaks huddle at first and B players come lean in A's huddle listening to coach. A coach notices as he breaks huddle and goes ballistic but doesn't get whacked.

2. A1 fouls out, A coach is on the clock to replace and calls team over for huddle on court, once again several B players come up behind A players and stick their ears in to listen. Coach goes crazy and gets whacked this time.

In both cases, do you have anything?

1. shoo the B guys away

2. This is not a timeout. They can go where they want.

For 2, I thought the coach was out of luck and should just shutup.

For 1 though, I was wondering if it could be considered unsportsmanlike?

Some backstory, these 2 teams are bitter rivals who really hate each other. Following 1, the head coaches had a nice heated exchange nose to nose at mid court.

Probably a double T for the coach to coach exchange.

+1

Plus 2 on this one.

I also agree with JAR on the op.

#1. Get B away from the huddle.

#2. No time out. B can go there.

We've Discussed This Before ...
 

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post572763

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post462155

How is that relevant to this thread, Billy?

Citations Please ???
 

I would probably do the same as just another ref, and Thumper68, but I would love to have a rulebook, or casebook, reference to back me up.

Definitely. If you ring them each up after #1, #2 - even though they can do it - probably doesn't happen.

Confused In Connecticut ???
 

"One Home team member goes and stands right beside the Visitor's huddle."

"A player that is supposed to be on their end of the court would all of a sudden be in front of the other bench during a timeout."

"Certainly are not allowed to violate the sanctity of the opponent's huddle."

"What is illegal about standing near someone's bench?"

What am I missing here?

Billy, I can't find anything but how about this...

Here's 5-11-2
A single 60-second time-out charged to a team shall not exceed one minute and shall be conducted within the confines of the time-out area.

Invoke the elastic clause and tell Coach B, "Coach, both of you have to use your time-out area. The other team isn't finished using theirs yet. Keep your players away."

The Plot Thickens ...
 

Does this strengthen your citation?

"Such a time-out shall not be reduced in length unless both teams are ready to play before the time-out is over."

I always thought that this rule was put in place to override the previous rule that the team that requested the timeout could unilaterally shorten the timeout. Could we use the newer wording to tell the "early" team that they are not allowed to shorten their timeout unilaterally, and must stay in their designated timeout area until the the other team has completed their timeout?

One fly in the ointment, I don't see a penalty associated with this rule.

[QUOTE]Yeah, it could. It might end up limiting teams to standing in their time-out areas until everyone is ready but it does help.

As you said, though, the problem is there's no prescribed penalty if a team doesn't stay in its time-out area other than...making the players go back into the area.

Now consider the fact that, in the OP, team B came out early but after the first horn. They're supposed to be breaking out of their huddle and getting prepared to play. Does this change any opinions (I'm not saying it should or shouldn't, just for discussion).

1. I'm seriously considering nothing. Possible whack to Team A coach; will try to calm him down.
   
2. Nothing to Team B. Whack to Team A coach.

I can see allowing B players to locate themselves wherever they wish. It's the leaning in that I have an issue with. It's contradictory to the betterment of the game, so if I disallow it, it's on that premise.

If the throw in is going to be by A's bench, I'm not telling them they have to move away after that first horn. If not, I will. Either way, coach doesn't have license to go ape sh1t.

I think this strengthens the position stated above. There is nothing going on in the opponents huddle which is a part of their preparation.

"Get away from there guys. Mind your own business."

There's nothing that requires them to break at the first horn. Absolutely nothing.

But they are to be ready to play by the 2nd horn....which allows them to be anywhere on the court at that time. So, at what time can they be anywhere?

Nothing in the rules prevents B from standing near A's huddle once B has released their players from the timeout huddle.

I'm still moving them away before the first horn, but I will step in if I see them leaning in. That' just unsporting. As for the coach from A going stupid, that's getting shut down quick.

I'd get them out of there, regardless. I don't need a special rule to prevent stupidity on the court. I'll give them plenty of time to get the position they want before the ball's put in play.

+1

C'mon guys!
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 869077) I'd get them out of there, regardless. I don't need a special rule to prevent stupidity on the court. I'll give them plenty of time to get the position they want before the ball's put in play.

Exactly.

A single 60-second time-out charged to a team shall not exceed one minute and shall be conducted within the confines of the time-out area.

That tells me a team should be within their own time-out area and not in the other team's area. When Team B players come into Team A's area and "lean" into their conference, that's the type of thing that starts fights. Unsporting acts are not limited to those specifically identified in the rule book. Yeah, I'm whacking that.

The game has got to be managed better than allowing this type of thing go on.

I'd at least address it, if not whack it the first time it happened, especially if it's more than one player. If it's just the inbounder and he;s just moving to / toward the spot, maybe there's more leeway.

Inbound was on same end as team A, baseline opposite benches. Was 3 of the 5 members of B.

Yep, no call for that whatsoever. Whack.

I was just in the crowd, but that's what I was thinking for the one during the timeout since it was blatantly unsportsmanlike and potentially inciting. For the one during the sub, coach is just out of luck.

The second doesn't happen if the first ends with free throws.

True, I just meant judging the potential unsportsmanlike-ness of each occurrence independently. But, free throws or not, I have no problem with the second one since the coach is using his sub time as a de-facto time-out.

So there are people saying they would give a T to team B? Would you call this T on one player specifically or the head coach?

Playing devil's advocate: I'm the head coach of team B and I accept telling my players to move or even a technical foul. Following the next timeout, what would you do if my team is ready to play and team A isn't out of their huddle and ready at the second horn? If your reply isn't to immediately give them a warning or T (if they already had a delay of game warning), how much are you willing to listen to me raise a stink?

I wouldn't give a T for this, but as soon as I read that some officials would tell the players to get away it made me think about what could happen the next time if A isn't ready at the second horn.

To me the point wasn't so much the ready to play aspect, but the fact that team B was intentionally attempting to listen in on team A's huddle which could very quickly incite a confrontation.

Technically, the rulewise way to handle your what-if is to put the ball in play, not give a warning or a T. Asking if they would do that would probably be the right hypothetical.

OK, would you do that...especially if the team B coach is yelling, "Come on, put the ball down, we are ready, the second horn sounded already"?

If they're yelling for it, not likely, but I wouldn't say never.

I still haven't got an answer to my question (not specifically asked of anyone) about WHEN they are allowed to be anywhere on the court if they are expected to be in position ready to play by the 2nd horn. They can't magically teleport from their bench area to the other end of the court by the other team if they can't go there before the 2nd horn. So, when can they go there. (I note again that I'm not saying they should be allowed in the other team's huddle area, just when is the other team's space no longer their space).

And I don't think you'll get an answer -- it's not specifically covered. So, we need to officiate and decide if B is "listening in too soon" or if A is "taking too long on the TO" (and maybe I have the teams backwards) and address (which doesn't necessarily mean a T) the behavior.

I don't understand why we're getting hung up on "where are the players allowed to be"?

I think all of us at one point have stepped between a couple of players during a dead ball and said, "walk away!" Are they not "allowed" to be at that specific spot on the floor?

There's only one reason for a player(s) to be in or at an opponent's huddle, and I guarantee you it's not for strategic purposes.

This is purely game management and that's not explained in detail in any book or manual. It's on us.....

Get them out of there. If they fail to heed, nail 'em.

That's simple. The T is on the first player to enter the opposing team's huddle.

First, one situation has nothing to do with the other.

But this answer is simple as well. If a team isn't ready at the second horn, you go with the resuming play procedure. Whistle, count 2 seconds, whistle and put the ball on the floor.

The rules don't allow a warning to be issued in this situation.

Whether Team A delays in returning to the floor or not, Team B has no right to enter their huddle.

And if you raise a stink, I can handle you, too.

Again, one has nothing to do with the other.

I'm not asking this to be smart, but have you had this happen before? I haven't had someone "go into the huddle" of the other team, but it would be an interesting situation. I just don't think I would give a T for this, even after this thread.

I think one does have something to do with the other. One team breaks the huddle after the first horn and one doesn't. If an official dictates where players can and cannot go while the other team is still in the huddle I think it is the right thing to do to end the timeout appropriately.

A coach could say a variation of the paragraph above. It could start as a calm remark/question from a coach all the way to the coach yelling to put the ball on the floor. I am wondering if someone would go as far as giving a coach a T for unsportingly asking for the official to do what the official is supposed to do.

I had a college game on Saturday and we talked about something similar to this in pregame. Some things just will not get done until you see guys doing it on TV...and that will probably not happen.

Camron, I will answer your question. After considering this situation, I think I would position myself between the players and the huddle and that is about as far as I would go after the first horn. That could mean the players are physically 4 or 5 feet away. I'm not sure how unsporting it would be to be close to the huddle since I would actively be interrupting the coach anyway to get them out of the huddle.

Yep, after the 1st horn an official should be by the huddle anyway reminding them to come out on the 2nd horn. I don't see an opposing player ignoring my presense.

Our state wants us near that huddle to get them out and from what I understand this was not a NF mandate. That might be the issue for many. This is a non-issue from the standpoint of being near the huddle when this likely happens.

Peace

Thank you. That is my point exactly. No matter how anyone says they would handle it or how others should handle it, they're treading in grey area where there is no direct rule support.

This is related to a situation regarding bench personnel, but the principle seems the same to me.

10.4.4 B In a situation where similar multiple infractions occur at the same time, it is not the intent of the rules to penalize each individual infraction as a separate technical foul. One technical foul is charged to team A........

No. I have had to deal with an opposing player standing by a player who were in discussion with their coach during a FT and it got ugly. Obviously, players can go anywhere on the floor during a FT, with the exception of restricted FT areas and that's what I had to communicate to the coach.

Based on that experience, I'm not going to allow a player to enter another team's TO huddle. We remain near the huddle after the 1st horn until they break or until just before the second horn sounds. But if a player did violate the huddle, I have no problem making the call.

A player can never go in an opposing team's timeout huddle. The huddle has nothing to do with the throw-in.

A coach isn't going to have that issue with me. First, we remain with th huddle to get them out and we use the RPP I posted above if they don't come out.

But again, an opponent entering a team's huddle has nothing to do with the RPP.

Treading in grey areas is why they pay us the big bucks. Game management and good judgment aren't written in a rule book.

Pretty simple to me. You get the opposing players out of the huddle. It is an unsporting act. If they or the coach don't want to respond then slap them with an unsporting technical foul.

Rule 10-4-1-D...Disrespectfully addressing, baiting, or taunting an opponent.

Restricting where a player on a team that has broken the huddle after the first horn and the RPP may very well be associated with one another. If you officiate in an area where coaches wouldn't associate the two good for you. In my experience, in several states, it would not be unthinkable for a coach to tie the two together and make comments about them.

By saying a coach isn't going to have that issue with you, are you saying that you follow the RPP to the letter, every time, in every game? To make such a claim would mean that 1) both teams come out of the huddle and are ready to play at the second horn or 2) you use the RPP if they don't...every time.

I agree with Camron and Rich, this is a grey area, but your comments make it seem like it is black and white. For me it is a grey area and coaches/players don't see parts of the game in isolation and react accordingly.

Define out of the huddle. 2 feet away? 20 feet away? 5 feet away until the second horn sounds? Near their timeout area until the other team is out of the huddle? Does the throw in spot play a part in this (it could be near the team in the huddle)?

Grey area and possibly inconsistent application by officials. I would use communication and make some good attempts to get out of this situation without a technical foul.

I know I'm not responding to what I posted, but what the heck...I'm trying to avoid a paper I'm writing for my day job that's boring me silly, so here goes:

I have said in the past that I'm not exactly pushy when it comes to resuming play after a timeout. As long as the team is breaking the huddle at the second horn and moving back towards the court, I'm not going to do anything but wait and restart the game. If a team delays more than that, I'm likely going to go to the coach and tell him I don't want to put the ball on the floor, please get them out quicker or I'll have to do that. Then I'll do it....when the team's on offense.

I see so much more time wasted with foul reporting, free throw administration, and with other game situations that have nothing to do with the RPP, that I'm not terribly bothered by this. I think I put the ball down once or twice last season in about 60 games and haven't done so at all this season -- and no opposing coach has said anything. I recognize that it isn't that way in other parts of the country and if the coaches are used to such a procedure (like apparent BktBallRef's area), then everyone sing from the same hymn book. But I'd rather work with the coaches as best as I can before I have to resort to measures that will guarantee to annoy them, like putting the ball on the floor is likely to do.

I would say that I am going to keep them out of the opposing teams time out area until the 2nd horn, or possibly the 1st horn. I haven't really ever thought of this as it has never happened to me. I agree with Rich, I am not setting the ball down and putting the ball in play as soon as the second horn sounds. I would certainly allow each time to get on the floor and positioned in this situation.

I agree Rich...with everything you said.

:D I would say this grey area isn't so simple when the distance and time to "keep them out of the huddle" isn't clearly defined. Are you sure this is as simple as your previous post suggests? I think this is where some soft skills come into play. Setting the ball down is close to a last resort for me, but I think a T for the other team being in the huddle would be close to a last resort for me too.

Not sure why you can't grasp this but the problem in the OP wasn't that a player was restricted from going somewhere on the floor. The problem was that the player entered another team's huddle. I don't care whether a horn has blown or not, that's unsporting.

I'm saying that I have NEVER had a problem in this situation in the past. And since past performance is a predictor of future behavior, I don't anticipate having an issue with this in the future.

A player entering the opposing team's huddle is black and white for me. If it's grey for you, that's just wonderful. I'm not anywhere near as concerned about how you will react as you seem to be about me.

And for the final time...

A player entering an opposing team's huddle during a timeout is a TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY different issue than a team breaking their huddle after the second horn. One has nothing to do with the other.

I'm done.

Well, before I'm done I would like to say how happy I am that times have changed. In the past, you would have your friends on your side and then they would close the thread as soon as you have your final say. The times have changed for real.

I have never had this problem either so I guess my past performance is a predictor of future behavior too. In my circle of officiating, we often toss around "what ifs" and go down that path of thinking. I guess you either don't do that or abruptly say that won't happen to you or chronological events aren't related...even though they happen in order.

You didn't answer my question about if teams break the huddle for you all the time after the first horn and/or if you use the RPP all the time if they aren't ready to play all the time after the second horn. I would bet a large sum of money neither happens so you operate in a grey area too.

I am not concerned about how you will react because we are different officials with different styles. From what I know (from your cyber friends) your style has been successful for you and I know my style has been successful for me. I have no problem stating that, but for some reason you think that your way is superior.

Saying things like "...for the final time..." indicates you think your word is final. If you think a coach will not comment on events that possibly happen one right after the other you have worked in ideal situations. I haven't lived such a charmed officiating life and I can easily see how coaches could possibly connect those dots regardless of how you or I may think they are connected.

I don't think I objected about someone entering the huddle. If I did, let me retract that part of the conversation. However, if I am the official who is on that side of the court, players aren't going to "enter the huddle". My preventive officiating will keep them from committing the unsporting act that you are ready to T up. Maybe that is why I'm not harping on this so much...it wouldn't happen on my watch unless the players push me to the side. At that point, we have a totally different problem.

You have a good evening ringing in the New Year Tony...and I mean that for real.