Make The Call
 

The book has all the right players, but has the numbers for A1 and A2 switched. No one says anything (likely because they didn't know). After half time, the table calls you over to tell you that A1 and A2 have switched jerseys and are now wearing the correct numbers according to the book.

Adam:

Read NFHS R3-S2-A2c. Charge Team A with a TF. The TF counts towards Team A's seven and ten fouls for the second half.

MTD, Sr.

Flagrant fouls charged to both players. :D

MTD...that rule states "requiring the scorer to change a team member's or player's number in the scorebook."

In the OP I don't think the scorekeeper had to change anything...

except the stats for each team member involved....certainly not their numbers...they did that themselves when they switched jerseys.

...not saying it isn't a T...just not sure that specific rule covers it.

What's the T for? Like Dan mentioned, they didn't change the numbers in the book. I can see, by rule, a flagrant for each, but I'm not sure you can use the book T here.

It doesn't seem like a book keeping error since the book remained the same but the players changed jerseys. Looks like a player tech per rule 10-3-1 fits...

ART. 1

A player shall not:

Participate after changing his/her number without reporting it to the scorer and an official.

PENALTY: (Art. 1) Flagrant foul. Penalized if discovered while being violated.

So Smith is wearing number 21 and Jones is wearing number 33. But the book says Smith is wearing 33 and Jones is wearing 21?

But when the scorer puts points and fouls in the book, he does it based on his knowledge of the players...not the numbers they are wearing? That sure sounds like a book error to me.

The only rule I know that covers this is 10-3-1, which is a flagrant player technical for participating after changing a number without reporting it to the scorer. That does not sound like what happened here.

I would say step one is to verify the team roster submitted to the scorer before the start of the game. If the book has what was submitted, then 10-3-1. If the scorer entered the info into the book wrong, then a bookkeeping error, no tech.

10-1-2d "Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook"

Coach is trying to avoid the T by having the players exchange jerseys, but then you have to change the book by switching the players' stats. Either way, I would not permit this strategy to succeed.

I doubt the coach knows the rule. And I would assume they made the change thinking it was the "easy" thing to do and were trying to be honest.

However, if you think they did it with intent, then charge them according to 10-3-1.

I think I would go to the coach and tell him the options.

He can go:
1) Switch the jerseys back to how they were and have 10-1-2 apply.
or
2) Keep them as they are and have 10-3-1 apply.

I would think once you explain the associated penalites he'll choose option 1.

Keep in mind that NFHS rules means that by applying a flagrant foul the kids are now ejected from that game and will lose the next game at that level. Unless you think that they were trying to be deceitful in some way IMO this would be a situation where prevenative officiating might be helpful. It's a harsh penality to eject 2 kids for 1 and a half games to a possible book keeping/clerical error. I've never been in this spot, that's a tough call for sure.

Rule reference, please. ;)

In the land of...
 

DQ'd, technically.

Nothing in the NFHS rules affect the eligibility of a player for a game other than the one currently being played. The state association may be a different story.

Why would 10-1-2 apply? The correct numbers were in the book, just the names were in the wrong spot. 10-1-2 doesn't say anything about switching names in the book. So we would not be changing a players number would we? Or I am I over thinking this one?

You're massively over-thinking this one. Players wear numbers. Numbers don't have names. Two players had the wrong number in the book and had to be corrected. That the other player with the wrong number happened to have the first players correct number listed instead of a number not in use is coincidental.

Does 10-3-1 apply if the scorer tells you before play begins for the second half?

Things like this is why we take the book to each coach at some point after the 10 minute pregame mark, and have them initial that everything in the book is correct.

There is going to be a T in this situation. Most likely in accordance with 10-1-2.

We don't do that here. We just make sure there are at least as many players in the book as on the court. Coaches don't initial anything, and there's no point in that. If the coach supplied the correct info to a score keeper who transferred it wrong, are you guys calling the T?

If I'm calling a book T, I don't need the coach's initials to justify it.

Again, though, the T here is for changing numbers, but that doesn't happen in this situation.

And I'm not convinced 10-3-1 applies, either, since the players hadn't actually participated prior to the officials being notified.

;)I see where you're going...I suppose we could/should inform the coach and give him/her the option?

What option? I can't go to 10-3, they didn't participate without me being notified.
I'm not convinced I can use 10-1-2, as the players' numbers weren't changed.

Fortunately, it wasn't my game, and I hope it gets brought up at our next meeting.

First, I should have said prior to the 10 minute mark. My mistake. Second, when we take it over to the coach, it is after the official scorekeeper has transfered all info, and whe the coach has initialed, any mistake found after that and the proper enforcement is applied, the coach can't make a big deal over it. When they initialed it, they confirmed everything was okay.

I didn't quote 10-3-1...I am using 10-1-2...Which says After the 10 minute mark a team shall not require the scorer to change a team members or players number in the scorebook.

Penalty: One foul only per team reardless of the number of infractions. Penalized when it occurs.

Yes, they switched jerseys, and by rule that would be two flagrant fouls and ejections, if they participate. My preference would be to tell the coach that by simply reversing the numbers in the book you only get 1 T.

Adam wins!

The rule says they have to participate "without notifying" the scorer or officials. That doesn't happen, so I don't think you can go to 10-3-1 at all.

10-1-2 is possible, but by the time it got noticed, they had rectified the problem. No numbers are changed in the book.

Do what's expected in your area, I just don't see the rule justification for holding the coach accountable for the scorer's transcription error. Even if he initials the official book, he's not required by rule to ensure the scorer transcribed everything properly.

I agree. I would go with 10-1-2 also.

For what? The numbers aren't changed.

I agree, but it sure makes it easier to explain to the coach when I can say... "Coach, you initialed the book stating everything was correct".

That's true.

Sorry, I'm just trying to flesh this out a bit.

It's all good. Book does say, if they change uniforms and participate it is a flagrant. I guess if the scorekeeper tells me prior to the start of the second half, I am going to the coach and saying..

1. If your two players participate after changing jerseys, each will be given a flagrant T, and they are ejected.

2. If you change the numbers in the book to the correct numbers, you will only receive 1 T.

I am pretty sure option 2 will be choosen.

But I don't even know if this is right. 10-3-1 says Participate after changing number without reporting it to the scorer and official. Which both were notified.

Houston, We Don't Have A Problem ...
 

I've been wondering about this since the first post.

What's the penalty for changing your number and notifying the scorer and the official, and then participating?

Casebook, Section 2, rosters starters and numbers
3-2-2

Team A properly submits its team member list and designates its five starters. However, the number for each team member is erroneously indicated. The error is not detected until after the game has started.

Rulling:
Only one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players and substitutes not wearing the number indicated in the scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook or change the scorebook number to that which they are wearing. Any substitues who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the scorebook will not result in a penalty as the one maximum technical has already been charge to the team for an administrative infraction.(10-1-1 Penalty)

I can't find one, if the change is to what the book already showed.

None.

And, why doesn't 10-1-2d apply? (Most seem to be focusing on 10-1-2c)

I think I found it.

Let's say A1 wore 43 for the first half. In the book, he was 45. He had no fouls or points. At half time, the coach realizes what happened, has him put on 45, and tells the officials.

Or, what if the coach does the same thing right before tip-off?

Possibly because they found everything out on their own during half time and changed and then told us they did it right before the start of the second half. So we're not finding out about it "when it occurred." (?) I could see this being no different from us being told they made the jersey switch during half time, but us not being told/finding out about it until midway through the second half.

Based on my last response to Bob's postulation, I guess it'd depend on when the change of jerseys actually happened. If in the locker room, hasn't it occurred in the past, and therefore wouldn't it not be punishable by the rule? Or are we to determine it having occurred being tied to a specific time period, such as an intermission, time out, or dead ball period?

T.

The "no penalty" part is A1 wears #43 and is listed as #43 in the book. Decides it's an unlucky number because he had no points in the first half. Changes to #45 and tells everyone.

(Okay, it usually happens with blood or a torn jersey, etc.)

Adding to my Original Post.
 

In the OP Adam said: "The book has all the right players, but has the numbers for A1 and A2 switched. No one says anything (likely because they didn't know). After half time, the table calls you over to tell you that A1 and A2 have switched jerseys and are now wearing the correct numbers according to the book."

When I made my OP it was 12:37amEST, it was obviously way past my bedtime, :D, and I did not pay attention to the sentence highlighted in red. The information contained in that sentence does change my position somewhat. Therefore by rule (NFHS R10-S3-A1) which stipulates that both A1 and A2 are charged with FTFs.

First, I would have some questions for the Scorer (this is not an all inclusive list but I think one could see that there are a number of questions that can be asked):

1) Were A1 and A2 wearing their normal jersey numbers and did you mistakenly transpose their numbers in the Scorebook?

2) Did you enter the correct numbers for A1 and A2 and did they decide to exchange jerseys without telling you?

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Let us just say that this could be, as they say in the Marine Corps, this could have been a "cluster ****".

The change jerseys rule is not really for mixups in the book. It is to deal with deception...a player changing numbers to start fresh on their foul count or to confuse the opposing team. They do that, they get a T. There are exceptions for blood or torn jerseys but those sorts of changes must go through the scorer and the official so that every one is aware of what is going on. This is not for when the names and numbers in the book are mixed up. It is for when the book is correct to start and they change to a new number.

When the names and numbers in the book don't match the player who has participated, that is an administrative error. The names and numbers in the book both matter. The name is the base information and the number is just an identifier used to log activity. If John Doe is wearing 42 and the book has them as 24 while Jimmy Doe is wearing 24 and the book has them as 42, that is an error in the book and must be fixed at the cost of an administrative T. Switching jerseys to match the book is not allowable without penalty.

This is what I am using. Unless they participate after switching the uniforms.

But back to Bob and Adam's recent question: What time frame permits us to penalize? Because this blanket statement is not wholly supported by the rule.

Mark, it's not a 10-3-1 issue unless they participate without informing the officials. The officials have been notified prior to them playing with the changed version.

Camron, what rule? The numbers haven't changed. Would you call a T if the switch was made right before the game started?

I can understand spirit and intent here, but by the letter, what's the rule?

Sorry, Pennsylvania (PIAA) State adoption. Any player ejected from a game is gone for the remainder of that game, and must sit the next game also.

Basically trolling now...
 

"Disqualified." There's a difference.

Exactly. That rule cannot apply here.

You can't dodge the rule by changing the "names" instead of changing the "numbers". The player are listed in the book. If the number attached to the name is not the number the player is wearing, then that number must be changed to what they are wearing. The name is the fixed element and the numbers listed must match what that person is wearing.

Except that the rule doesn't say anything about changing names...it prohibits changing numbers. If the numbers are not changed, just the names moved, how does that violate the rule?

Not trying to be argumentative at all...this is one that I simply don't get. And I honestly have no idea what the names of 99% of the players are anyway...so how would we even know unless the scorer told us they switched names?

But that's just it, by the time the officials were notified, the players were wearing the jersey numbers as the book listed them. IOW, no changes were made to anything except the stats.

Assuming their foul counts were different after one half.

I'm not saying we would know who is who, but the rule says that if player XYZ is wearing 23 but is listed as 12, then the book has to be changed to show that XYZ is wearing 23. That is the whole point of the rule, to properly identify who is who by number. The whole structure of the roster rules define a list of names (the one thing that is absolute) that is labeled with the numbers they're wearing.