Playing with 4
 

As a coach had a situation come up in our game yesterday, and need clarification on a rule.

Team A has 6 players dressed, one of the takes a charge and gets dinged up and has to leave the game. Team A does not want to play the one sub for the last 20 seconds of the quarter as they want to save her that quarter to play the varsity game.

Have had many officials tell us in the past that if they are dressed, on the bench, healthy and eligible to play they have to play. Last night they told us you could play with 4 and leave an eligible player on the bench, just wondering which is correct.

I loked in the case book last night, and it appears that if you have kids eligible to play, you cannot play with less than 5, but looking for clarification for future reference

That's the rule, but the specific enforcement might depend on the definition of "eligible."

I think they should have had more than 6 players to start with. ;)

Bob is right. How do you define eligible?

If the coach tells you they don't have anyone available then play on.

It's not up to us to determine why A1 (or whoever) is on the bench but can't play.

Thanks, it was in a JV game in Indiana (kids can play both games and 5 quarters total) and in the last few days they had a kid get sick and another quit taking them from 8 to 6.

They wanted the sub to play 2 varsity quarters, and if she would have played the last few seconds she would have only been able to play 1. The other teams 2 JV coaches are also licensed officials and they seemed certain on the rule. Like I mentioned in the past we had been told they had to play if they were on the bench so wanted to get clarification for future reference

Good question Coach...we have had many a discussion here on this very topic.

This is how you might like the conversation to go...

Official: "Coach, do you have an eligible player to sub in?"

Coach: "No, I do not."

The conversation may continue...

Official: "But Coach, I see a team member on the bench... suited up."

Coach: "She is not eligible."

That would do it for me...there are some here that may have some different conversation scenarios...stand by...you may get them.;)

3-1-1 case book.

A team must play with 5 as long as that number is available. Doesn't say anything about "eligible" player.

Don't get me wrong, I'm letting them do this too... but if you get into the conversation like this, then what do you do in the next quarter when they DO want to play her?

Define available.

I see no book definition. The coach might define available as - Suzy is not available for the first half because she's playing 2 quarters in the varsity game.

I would end the conversation after the "No, I do not." Good enough for me.

Allow him/her to play. If that player is available at that time then they are allowed to play. Player may have been injured or whatever before. If the coach tells me they don't have anyone available then that's all I need to know. If down the road they return to 5 then by rule they may do so.

Same thing (well, same issue).

Does "I'm holding the player for the V game" mean the player is "not available for this game"?

Might be worth a report to the state / assignor just in case there's some pattern of this and the coach is (or is trying to) get an advantage.

I guess we could "what if" this to death...;)

I have seen a lot, but, I have never had a coach try to put a player in AFTER he said the player was not eligible or available.

I'd have to go case by case...for example:

If a coach tells me his player is not available because of sickness...then said his player miraculously got well...I'm probably letting the player play.

If little Suzy is on the bench and in the books, and hasn't been disqualified, she is available to play.

It was def not a case of them doing this all the time to try and gain an advantage, and I am pretty good friends with the other teams coaches, just wondering what the rule was.

Not sure what the convo was with the officials and the coach, but the official told us "they are choosing to play with 4 the rest of the half". It was the word choosing that did not seem to fit, if the explanation was they have 2 hurt right now and only have 4 that can play that is a lot different to me than they are choosing to play with 4.

I guess we will see a bunch of answers unless we actually know what an available player means. We have always taken it to mean a healthy player who has not fouled out and has quarters available to play and is on the bench as kids that are available

...and it would be good enough for me as well.

I was simply giving the coach a response to the officials who want to pursue the matter of a suited team member on the bench.

I'm not quibbling with the coach here. If he says she isn't available, it's not my place to disagree.

You're right, this battle isn't worth the fight.

...what if...;)

...that "healthy" player just cussed the coach and/or said he wanted to "quit this lousy team"?

You could whack the team, you could try and MAKE the coach play the player, you could do a host of things...many of them wrong IMO.

If the coach tells me the player is not available...then the player is not available...simple as that.

In my area...I would be supported...do what ya gotta do in your area.

If this is a JV game and the V game is to follow and I ask about a player and they say she is not available, I'm not prodding anymore. If they want to play with four, let them. The V game is a different story.

Around here, coaches/schools plan for this and sometimes don't play a JV game if they don't have enough quarters available. At other times they'll play only a quarter or half of a JV game just to get their JV kids on the court.

Each player here can play six quarters a night. It used to only be five.

I disagree. What if she's injured? We don't know and it's not our job dig any further. If the coach says she's not available then she's not, we move on.

Agree.

Even in a varsity game, I'm not forcing anything. There is nothing that doesn't apply here.

You simply can't know that. She could have already used up all her allowable quarters. If you force the issue you could cause the team to forfeit and cost the player eligibility.

If a coach says he doesn't have any available players, he doesn't have any available players. If it seems suspicious, report it to the state. Our job is to referee the game, not sit as judge of availability/eligibility.

So we need to know the definition of "available" right? This is the case book info I could find on it, I guess what is to prevent someone who wants to do what is referenced in this case, from just saying, oh we only have 4 available?

Like I said in the OP, I do not know the answer and have been told both ways as to if you can play or cannot play with 4--in this case it was the 2nd quarter of the JV, so there was no issue with the players quarters being used up.

We had to finish a game with 3 a few years back as we used our kids that were splitting time early and they were not available in the 2nd half as they were out of quarters

3.1.1 SITUATION: After six players have been disqualified, Team A has only four who are eligible to continue in the game as players. In a gesture of fair play, the coach of Team B indicates a desire to withdraw a player so that each team will have four players on the court. RULING: This is not permissible. Team B must have five players participating as long as it has that number available. If no sub- stitute is available, a team must continue with fewer than five players. When only one player remains to participate, that team shall forfeit the game unless the ref- eree believes this team still has an opportunity to win the game.

You don't know that. The player could have participated in a freshmen game earlier in the day.

It's the same answers, and the same arguments, we get every year when this question comes up. The general consensus is what's been stated: If the coach says the player is not available, then the player is not available. If needed, make a report.

The furthest I'd go is like th ecase play -- The coach "offers" to play with 4 "to be fair." I'd tell the coach that 5 must play if 5 are available. Leave the rest up to him/her.

And, I just had this in a college game a couple of weeks ago. Team has 7. 1 fouls out. 1 is injured (and attended to on the court). Team member on the bench says "because I don't f***in' want to go in." We let the injured player remain in the game. Put it in the report.

IUBIRDMAN...Just curious as to who the teams were...PM me if want to.

Just sent you one Indianaref

It's not your job to decide this. What about the girl who just came out due to injury? She's on the bench. She's in the books. She hasn't been disqualified. You going to make him play her if they drop to 4 without her?

If coach says she's not available, she's not. If she's available later, she is. Not our job to monitor.

If the coach says she's not eligible than that's that and we play on. If an opposing coach wants to make an issue of it he can complain to the league. I'm sure they would love to spin cycles on JV game debates.