T or no T?
 

My parter from the lead calls a foul on H1 (speaking captain) resulting in 2 freethrows for V1 as it was during a shot attempt. While my partner is reporting the foul I move to the new lead to administer the freethrows. H2 hands me the ball and says we are playing good defense, they are just throwing it up there. I tell him my parter had a good look at it and must have seen contact. He gives me the look like I'm an idiot and says "but we ain't fouling". I tell him "that is enough." We shoot the first shot. As I am handed the ball H2 looks at H1 and with a certain tone says "good defence" It was obvious to me what he was saying. I am standing in the lane and H1 with some good sence looks at me and says "he was talking to me". I then instruct all players that any further comment on any call would result in a T.
H1 looks at me and says "yes, sir".

Should I have given a T to H2 for his good defence comment as it was another attack on my partner's call. Not that it matters on the t or no t but for some background it was only the 3rd fould called on their team and we were about one minute into the 4th quarter.
3rd fould on their team and we were about 1 minute into the fourth quarter

Just a side note: I don't get speaking captains. I will talk to anyone on the court as long as they're playing nice. Speaking captains are an old thing that has stayed around longer than it should have if you ask me.

After the "good defense" comment I would look at them and tell them they need to play and we will officiate. I would also tell my partner that I told them to cut it out so he knows too. After that penalize if you need to.

I might. I certainly wouldn't question another official who did.

I guess I would have to be there. It seems like another conversation with a brat player to me.

If he just says "we're playing good D and they are just throwing up there" I'll thank him for the handing me the ball and ask everyone to line up for the free throws. No reason to reply with something that invites further comment about contact.

Ideally my partner has already reported and is in his position and we're administering free throws and moving the game along quickly. The sooner we move on the better.

Likely not a T, since that type of comment isn't said often in my woods. As such, I barely acknowledge those types of comments. I'm not going to go play communication cop when players or coaches say "good defense" when I know they're just commenting on the call.

Now, if they persist, they broke one of the three P's, and then you deal with it.

That is exactally what it was but by not giving him a T it seems like I actually am condoning his behavior and it will continue in the future. Thinking back I believe I should have called the T.

Not even close to a T, imo.

Hell no. I suspect it's more likely H2 was trying to ground H1 rather than making a sideways comment to your partner, who wasn't even there to hear it. Too sensitive by several degrees.

It comes in handy in one particular area. Should the game go into overtime, you'll need a quick captains meeting to tell them there will be a four-minute OT period, a jump ball, and an extra 60-second timeout for each team after the OT has started.

Aside from that, I don't ask for speaking captains, unless I have a partner that insists upon them. The rules say that all five players can talk to us. That's good enough for me.

1) I've never done that

2) Only to request a TO (or something like that), iirc.

A captain can be handy if you want to get a message to another player (tell #2 to watch his attitude) or coach (I need you to help get your team out of the huddle after a TO)

H2 wasn't trying to ground H1 as H2 was the only one to complain even though the fould was on H1. Also H2 never complained to the calling official only myself. He most definetly said it as if to say you didn't foul, you got screwed.

My sentiments exactly.

Peace

I agree...not even close to a T

The only thing in that list I'd think about telling anyone is the extra 60...and I'm telling the coaches that. Everyone will get the fact that there will be 4 minutes and a jump ball when...you tell the timer to put 4 on the clock and tell everyone to line up for the jump ball (which most players already know I'd guess).

My $0.02-

I would not want to explain a T in the situation above to my assignor. And therefore would not call it.

I would either ignore the first comment about playing good defense or respond by saying something to the effect of, "you play, we'll officiate." You have to find words that work for you but I simply say, "Play ball" in a way that seems to be understood by 99% of the players in my games.

If the comments continue then I either choose to issue the T or usually repeat "play ball" more sternly if needed. For me this takes care of things almost every time. And if it's something I suspect will continue but was not necessarily T worthy then I may talk to the coach and let him know that #23 needs to play ball and cut out the comments. After that it's T time.

IMO I would stay away from statements like, "any further comment on any call would result in a T." No need to threaten a T. Either issue it or don't. When you told them, "that's enough" they know what you mean.

inho, definitely not T-worthy. Don't get caught up in the the drama that emotional/immature players/coaches create during the game. Using our experience and maturity, we can simply recognize that comment for what it is....and move on.

Don't have conversations when a player makes comments like "we are playing good defense, they are just throwing it up there." Simply say "I don't want to hear any more comments"

Silence is golden sometimes.

Color me "not even close to a T."

When he whinges that they're playing good defense, I'll tell him, "Good, keep working hard." If he wants to argue or comment about the call, then I'll end the conversation.

I think we have a right and responsibility to address players. Just the way you do it is different. Players are not on equal footing with coaches IMO and their behavior should be addressed directly. It would just be a one way conversation that is all.

Peace

Edit to my above post #11:

I see that 2-5-8 (Referee's Duties) has been edited to read "Inform each team and the table officials of the overtime procedures when the score is tied at the end of regulation time."

I don't know what it said before.

I usually just tell the table 4 minutes, add a full TO to each side.

Advice stage, I see.

The only thing I address from players here is "what did I do?" Anything beyond that ends with "You asked what you did. I told you. Time to move on." That assumes it was my call, if not I refer them to That Guy.

Players that try to debate quickly find themselves playing defense or rebounding free throws.

Nothing more really goes well.

I never ask for speaking captains. If it goes to OT, I tell whichever coach looks at me first from each team, four minutes, you get one more timeout.

I definately wouldn't issue a T in the OP scenario...but then again I don't issue many. If they aren't showing me up then I usually give them a break. In this scenario, you are in the paint and they (I am assuming) are speaking at a level where only you and the players around you can hear. Let him know to keep playing and press without getting your panties bunched. Now if you are the trail and he comes and throws his arms up as he says something..T him right there because he just showed you up in the middle of the floor. IMO many of us are to sensitive...this isn't about us out there. Let them have their frustration as long as they aren't demonstrative and play on.

I have to add a couple of things. First, this idea that they get a pass if they aren't showing you up is misleading. It isn't the only way to get a T. If johnny says something stupid and I'm the only one who hears it, too bad, he gets a T.

Second, players and coaches may be emotional, they have a vested interest in the outcome. However, they still have to control those emotions. Displaying emotion is never an excuse for poor sportsmanship.

As always to each his own...if I am under the basket and a kid says something to me at a level only the immediate area can hear he usually gets a pass with me. But at the same time he curses, or tells me I suck...something personal..he gets whacked. The last 2 people I whacked were for arm motion only without words...one coach and one player at the top of the key. But after 20+ years of officiating multiple sports my skin is fairly thick...:)

I do the same in baseball...kid looks down towards the plate and says "you missed that one blue" gets a pass...same kid looks back in my direction without saying a word but shows everyone in the park his disapproval...better be swinging the next pitch I don't care where it is.

I don't think we're too far apart. Some things get addressed more quickly if they're loud, but it's usually more about tone than anything else. Other times, a quiet comment gets ignored while the same words get shouted and earn a T.

My only point was that saying it quietly without gestures isn't an automatic pass just because no one knows it was said. Coach or player quietly says "Your partner is a ....", that's a T regardless of volume or gestures.

And I've had plenty of vet partners who bragged about thick skin but just wouldn't take care of business. It doesn't mean much, frankly.

I know we have some other baseball guys on this board. Do you do the same thing? I am looking at this as either hyperbole or kind of a foul (pun intended) practice. If a ball is extremely outside, would you still call it a strike?

Exactly!

First of all baseball is a whole different animal. There would be a little more dialog from me to a batter if they showed they were not happy with a call. I have a mask on and can say a lot of things that will never be heard directly. Harder to read lips too. You really cannot compare the sports because of the nature of the eyes in basketball and proximity to others and the mores of the sports.

Peace

No... but if the ball is barely outside, it was not barely outside. There are some who believe in the FYC call - I've never been one of them, and usually those that say they will do this, do not do it in actuality.

Thanks for all the replies. At the time it felt like he was questioning our integrity. Nice to see both sides of it.

This is a good situation where a pair of "earmuffs" come in handy. Just ignore him... he is obviously frustrated with the call. I think the only mistake you made is trying to explain that your partner had a good look. Maybe he didn't??? i would just tell the kid it was a tough play and to talk to your partner about it. I stay out of it as the non-calling official.

Point taken. The player complaining wasn't the player to which the foul was called.

Yeah... sometimes you get the "big brother" player who is going to stick up for his teammates. Again, I think you can ignore this one and move on.

As MD said, the "old school" way to handle a player pissing and moaning was the "f*** you call" where you would call a strike on a pitch that wasn't really a strike. That is generally discouraged now, and there are other ways to handle it. If a batter hasn't said anything else and just says "You missed that one" like egj13 was talking about, it doesn't even get a response from me, especially at the college level. If he is persistent or tries to show you up, you can walk in front of the plate and brush it off and talk to him with your mask on. Same with the catcher if he is giving you trouble.