The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Hand Mechanics for reporting fouls (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/93244-hand-mechanics-reporting-fouls.html)

maroonx Sat Dec 15, 2012 07:29pm

Hand Mechanics for reporting fouls
 
Announce color first. Then number. When saying number what hand do you use? One hand to announce 2 digit number like 42 or one hand for the 4 and other hand for 2.

APG Sat Dec 15, 2012 07:31pm

If you're strictly using NF mechanics, then numbers are reported using one hand.

BillyMac Sat Dec 15, 2012 07:42pm

I Already Know, I'm A Bad Boy, Please Don't Tell Santa Claus ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maroonx (Post 867029)
One hand to announce 2 digit number like 42 or one hand for the 4 and other hand for 2.

Now, more importantly, does the reporting official verbalize, "Four. Two.", or, "Forty-two"? I'm positive that we'll only get one definitive Forum answer to this question. That's the way things usually work around these parts. Right?

Freddy Sat Dec 15, 2012 09:36pm

This is Rome; Do It This Way Here
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by maroonx (Post 867029)
Announce color first. Then number. When saying number what hand do you use? One hand to announce 2 digit number like 42 or one hand for the 4 and other hand for 2.

Fed mechanics (unlike other states) here: one-hand number reporting. Our crew mentions to the table that the hand with which we give the number is the same side as the bench of the team that committed the foul. Some appreciate that, though it's not required by Fed or state. Handy for extra noisy gyms, of which we have more than a few around here.

JRutledge Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 867032)
Now, more importantly, does the reporting official verbalize, "Four. Two.", or, "Forty-two"? I'm positive that we'll only get one definitive Forum answer to this question. That's the way things usually work around these parts. Right?

Honestly who cares? If you use a strong voice it really does not matter.

Peace

grunewar Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:19pm

The 2011-12 NFHS Basketball Guide should have put an end to this "myth."

"Use one hand to signal the number of the player that fouled."

"When verbalizing a two-digit number, say the full number, not the two parts. For example, a foul on number 24 should be said, "Blue twenty-four," not Blue two-four."

End of story, no?

Welpe Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:29pm

When in Rome, don't do as the Egyptians or something like that.

We do as the NFHS manual suggests.

constable Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:37pm

Always been taught by every supervisor to say the full number.. twenty-three as opposed two-three.

Sharpshooternes Sun Dec 16, 2012 02:07am

How bout we just go by the book?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by constable (Post 867058)
Always been taught by every supervisor to say the full number.. twenty-three as opposed two-three.

The NFHS 2011-2013 Basketball officials manual states:

0.2.1 Mechanics Points of Emphesis
"When verbalizing a two digit number, say the full number not the two parts."

BillyMac Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:06am

Settled ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 867042)
The 2011-12 NFHS Basketball Guide: "When verbalizing a two-digit number, say the full number, not the two parts. For example, a foul on number 24 should be said, "Blue twenty-four," not Blue two-four."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes (Post 867085)
The NFHS 2011-2013 Basketball officials manual states: 0.2.1 Mechanics Points of Emphasis "When verbalizing a two digit number, say the full number not the two parts."

Excellent citations.

Connecticut, as an IAABO state, has been using IAABO mechanics for several years now. Back when we were using NFHS mechanics, I don't recall specific direction to "say the full number not the two parts", or even the opposite of that. As a result, all of us were taught, and new officials are still taught, to verbalize the two parts of the number.

When did the NFHS come up with such clear, specific hand signal directions? With such clear directions, why has this topic been debated over and over again on the Forum? The current 2012-13 IAABO mechanics guide is not as specific as the NFHS on this procedure.

RookieDude Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:08am

How many officials do you see point to the bench, of the team that has fouled, prior to giving the number of the player that fouled?

Is that a big deal in your area?

grunewar Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:12am

Old School?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 867111)
How many officials do you see point to the bench, of the team that has fouled, prior to giving the number of the player that fouled?

Is that a big deal in your area?

My mentor, a long since retired HS official, who just does an occasional Rec Game with me now, still does this sometimes.

Other than him, I've never seen it done.......

bob jenkins Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 867111)
How many officials do you see point to the bench, of the team that has fouled, prior to giving the number of the player that fouled?

Is that a big deal in your area?

It's frowned upon, but sometimes it's hard to hear / understand so when I'm at the table (as I have been before) it can help.

I think it should be added to the mechanics.

RookieDude Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 867114)
It's frowned upon, but sometimes it's hard to hear / understand so when I'm at the table (as I have been before) it can help.

I think it should be added to the mechanics.

I agree with you bob...

It is old school...when I first started officiating all the Varsity guys would use this mechanic. Therefore, I used it. But, the mechanic became frowned on in venues where we are rated...as it was not an "approved" mechanic...so I quit using it years ago.

Some very good officials around here still use it...and some of the new guys are watching them and starting to use the mechanic.

I just got a email from a association member today asking me to address this issue at our next meeting. He does not want to make a "big deal" about it...but, wants some quidance.

In a loud gym it can be a good mechanic...I agree...but, not "approved".

What say you? ...in regards to guiding your membership.

Freddy Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 867111)
How many officials do you see point to the bench, of the team that has fouled, prior to giving the number of the player that fouled?

Is that a big deal in your area?

We call it "the accusatory point" here. Was formerly done by everyone. But it was a big enough deal to the state that they asked us not to do the point-to-the-bench-that-did-the-foul thing anymore. Just say, "Blue foul...", then give the number.
Without the pointy-thingy to do anymore some, like our crew, are going to the reporting-the-fouler's-number-with-the-hand-that's-on-the-side-of-the-bench-of-that-team thing for clarity's sake.

Rich Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 867117)
We call it "the accusatory point" here. Was formerly done by everyone. But it was a big enough deal to the state that they asked us not to do the point-to-the-bench-that-did-the-foul thing anymore. Just say, "Blue foul...", then give the number.
Without the pointy-thingy to do anymore some, like our crew, are going to the reporting-the-fouler's-number-with-the-hand-that's-on-the-side-of-the-bench-of-that-team thing for clarity's sake.

Why say "foul"? Just say, "Blue, 33."

(I saw a lot of IL officials say "blue shirt" when working games down there. I found that equally weird.)

Larks Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrutledge (Post 867041)
honestly who cares? If you use a strong voice it really does not matter.

Peace

+1

Adam Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 867120)
Why say "foul"? Just say, "Blue, 33."

(I saw a lot of IL officials say "blue shirt" when working games down there. I found that equally weird.)

They actually brought told us not to say "foulzon" in a meeting this year. I don't think I've ever said that. Til my first game after that meeting. Stupid power of suggestion.

Freddy Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:53am

That's a Big Ten-Four -- I Mean a One Hundred Four -- Good Buddy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 867120)
Why say "foul"? Just say, "Blue, 33.")

If this had a Like button I would click on it. :)

JRutledge Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 867120)
Why say "foul"? Just say, "Blue, 33."

(I saw a lot of IL officials say "blue shirt" when working games down there. I found that equally weird.)

I do not get the use of the "shirt" part. Not everyone does it and so few people do it from what I can tell it always raises my eye brows.

Peace

Adam Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 867134)
I do not get the use of the "shirt" part. Not everyone does it and so few people do it from what I can tell it always raises my eye brows.

Peace

Fairly or not, it always struck me as an attempt to be obvious about not talking about skin color, as I've only seen it used with black and white jerseys.

BillyMac Sun Dec 16, 2012 03:06pm

"Where They Will Not Be Judged By The Color Of Their Skin" (Martin Luther King, Jr.)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 867136)
An attempt to be obvious about not talking about skin color, as I've only seen it used with black and white jerseys.

Political correctness to the extreme.

Freddy Sun Dec 16, 2012 04:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 867136)
Fairly or not, it always struck me as an attempt to be obvious about not talking about skin color, as I've only seen it used with black and white jerseys.

Hard for me to comprehend the inordinate measure of self-afflicted, over-the-top sensitivity inherent in the person's psyche, but I actually had a partner who made this an issue right before the jump ball to start the game several years back. He spent the whole game calling "visitors' ball"..."foul, visitors"..."visitors' timeout," while calling the other team naturally by the color of the home jerseys.
Appeared so ridiculous that the obvious, unnatural avoidance of his verbalization of the color of the jersey of that team attracted more attention than it really needed to.
I just called it by jersey color. Didn't really matter to anyone in the whole gym but my partner that day, I guess.

JRutledge Sun Dec 16, 2012 04:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 867136)
Fairly or not, it always struck me as an attempt to be obvious about not talking about skin color, as I've only seen it used with black and white jerseys.

I have never heard that explanation to why guys say "shirt." Actually the people that do this are old timers mostly and I guess that is the way they used to say things and it never changed. Not sure it is that well thought out.

Peace

Adam Sun Dec 16, 2012 05:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 867164)
I have never heard that explanation to why guys say "shirt." Actually the people that do this are old timers mostly and I guess that is the way they used to say things and it never changed. Not sure it is that well thought out.

Peace

You're probably right. That's just how it came across to me as a new guy (I haven't heard it in years.)

JRutledge Sun Dec 16, 2012 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 867166)
You're probably right. That's just how it came across to me as a new guy (I haven't heard it in years.)

I am sure to some people they want to avoid some offensive issue, but that just sounds so absurd if that is the case. I say the color and it does sometimes strike me funny when I have to say, "Black coach" or "Red Coach" and there is some sort of association with their race, but that is never taken serious by me. I even chuckle when I say, "Black ball." Again it does not mean someone should be honestly offended. I know I am not offended as a person that could be labeled if I was to mention a color. Just like it would not offend me if I heard someone say, "I like to wear black (or white) clothing."

Peace

bob jenkins Sun Dec 16, 2012 06:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 867167)
I even chuckle when I say, "Black ball."

Just "black" works here, too.

JRutledge Sun Dec 16, 2012 06:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 867170)
Just "black" works here, too.

I say both. No particular reason, just know I say both. I think we worry too much about what people say. The average person or official hardly if ever notices anyway.

Peace

just another ref Sun Dec 16, 2012 06:21pm

Many years ago I played in an independent tourney where both teams showed up wearing gold jerseys. Their team was all black. Our team was all white. So that's the way the officials identified us. Then and now, it seems logical and inoffensive to me.

rekent Sun Dec 16, 2012 06:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 867172)
Many years ago I played in an independent tourney where both teams showed up wearing gold jerseys. Their team was all black. Our team was all white. So that's the way the officials identified us. Then and now, it seems logical and inoffensive to me.

Seems logical under the circumstances, but no way officials could get away with it now. Someone (probably completely unrelated to the teams and just sitting in the crowd) would get offended and the lawsuit would be filed before the final horn.

JRutledge Sun Dec 16, 2012 06:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rekent (Post 867174)
Seems logical under the circumstances, but no way officials could get away with it now. Someone (probably completely unrelated to the teams and just sitting in the crowd) would get offended and the lawsuit would be filed before the final horn.

File a lawsuit for what? Identifying them for what they are?

Peace

rekent Sun Dec 16, 2012 06:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 867175)
File a lawsuit for what? Identifying them for what they are?

Peace

I didn't say it was logical by any means or that it would have even a remote chance of success, just that some overly sensitive individual would likely claim it was offensive to them and try to cause problems/go for a quick $.

JRutledge Sun Dec 16, 2012 07:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rekent (Post 867176)
I didn't say it was logical by any means or that it would have even a remote chance of success, just that some overly sensitive individual would likely claim it was offensive to them and try to cause problems/go for a quick $.

I think sometimes the assumption of PC is more outrageous than the actual incidents of that very thing. Just and observation.

Peace

rekent Sun Dec 16, 2012 07:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 867177)
I think sometimes the assumption of PC is more outrageous than the actual incidents of that very thing. Just and observation.

Peace

If I am reading your statement correctly, so do I. The incredible sensitivity of PC is ridiculous.

JRutledge Sun Dec 16, 2012 07:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rekent (Post 867178)
If I am reading your statement correctly, so do I. The incredible sensitivity of PC is ridiculous.

I am not sure you are reading what I am saying correctly. I think the reaction to what is assumed to be PC is over the top. I do not see anyone filing a lawsuit if what took place was a temporary situation. I have worked a game where two teams were wearing gold and we called the teams by the color of their numbers. I would have done the same thing as stated if that was the main way to keep the teams separate. It is not like there would be discrimination going on to identify someone. People identify people by their race or gender all the time. Do we get upset when we say "Girls basketball" when that is what someone is actually doing or describing? No, so why would we get upset if someone mentioned someone by an identifier. Never heard of a lawsuit for such a silly reason like we are discussing here now.

Peace

rekent Sun Dec 16, 2012 07:26pm

Let's go back and forget I posted anything on the topic. :o
Seems like what I am meaning (largely what you are saying) and what is actually coming across are two very different things.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1