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-   -   Time out, no possession (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/93227-time-out-no-possession.html)

Chris Whitten Fri Dec 14, 2012 09:29am
Time out, no possession
 
Middle school game between two historically heated rivals. Two opposing players on the floor after a loose ball. A1 is sitting upright with his legs in a "V" and the ball winds up between his legs with neither of his hands on the ball. He verbally requests time-out and I grant it. My "flash reasoning" is he has the ball "collected" AND, the next thing to happen will be really ugly. Did Yours Truly err? Would you have granted the TO request?

bob jenkins Fri Dec 14, 2012 09:36am
Sure -- grant the TO after you whistle the violation for a kicked ball.

jdmara Fri Dec 14, 2012 09:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 866826)
Sure -- grant the TO after you whistle the violation for a kicked ball.
Absolutely correct. That is a kicked ball and grant the timeout

-Josh

OKREF Fri Dec 14, 2012 09:47am
Nothing in the OP says there was a kicked ball. If there was one was it intentional

Raymond Fri Dec 14, 2012 09:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 866826)
... whistle the violation for a kicked ball.
You beat me to it.

Chris Whitten Fri Dec 14, 2012 09:47am
Sorry, gents. As you know, things happen quickly in our game. The ball was never held between the legs or purposely touched by the legs of A1.

Raymond Fri Dec 14, 2012 09:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 866831)
Sorry, gents. As you know, things happen quickly in our game. The ball was never held between the legs or purposely touched by the legs of A1.
Then you should not have granted the time-out.

bob jenkins Fri Dec 14, 2012 09:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 866831)
Sorry, gents. As you know, things happen quickly in our game. The ball was never held between the legs or purposely touched by the legs of A1.
Then it wasn't "collected" as you indicated in your first post.

stir22 Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:17am
Follow up...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 866834)
Then it wasn't "collected" as you indicated in your first post.

Just so I can get this straight in my brain...if the ball ends up between someone's legs, and he/she brings his/her knees together to "collect" the ball, then we've got a violation for kicked ball?

Rob1968 Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:26am
Intentional contact, with one's legs, on the ball
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stir22 (Post 866837)
Just so I can get this straight in my brain...if the ball ends up between someone's legs, and he/she brings his/her knees together to "collect" the ball, then we've got a violation for kicked ball?
The general understanding is that any intentional contact with the ball, using one's legs, is considered a "kick." Such contact is often seen as a "non-basketball action."
Recently, a player, sitting on the floor, put his leg on top of the ball, to control it, when he saw that an opponent was about to grab the ball. I called the violation, to the great disapproval of many of the fans, who voiced their opinion that, "That wasn't a kick!" . . . Smile, throw-in for the other team. Game continues.

DLH17 Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 866839)
The general understanding is that any intentional contact with the ball, using one's legs, is considered a "kick." Such contact is often seen as a "non-basketball action."
Recently, a player, sitting on the floor, put his leg on top of the ball, to control it, when he saw that an opponent was about to grab the ball. I called the violation, to the great disapproval of many of the fans, who voiced their opinion that, "That wasn't a kick!" . . . Smile, throw-in for the other team. Game continues.
Nicely done!

MD Longhorn Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:05am
Interesting. Post a situation. Don't like the response. Change the situation. Hmmmm.

Did he or did he not contact the ball intentionally with his legs. If yes - kicked ball. If no, then how did he have the ball "collected" without having it in his hands?

Yes, you erred... we just don't know which way yet.

Raymond Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 866823)
... Did Yours Truly err? ...
To simplify the thread.

Yes, you erred either by granting the time-out or by not calling a kicked ball.

Lesson learned, on to the next one.

stir22 Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 866839)
The general understanding is that any intentional contact with the ball, using one's legs, is considered a "kick." Such contact is often seen as a "non-basketball action."
Recently, a player, sitting on the floor, put his leg on top of the ball, to control it, when he saw that an opponent was about to grab the ball. I called the violation, to the great disapproval of many of the fans, who voiced their opinion that, "That wasn't a kick!" . . . Smile, throw-in for the other team. Game continues.
Thank you!!!

fiasco Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 866849)
Interesting. Post a situation. Don't like the response. Change the situation. Hmmmm.
It's essential not to read too much into what someone says and just read their words. The OP never changed the scenario. You (and others) just read it wrong. The OP never said the ball was being controlled by, or touched by, the player's legs.

Quote:
the ball winds up between his legs with neither of his hands on the ball.
"Winds up" sounds like the ball must have bounced there and come to a rest, without any action by the player's legs.

Then he went on to clarify the same point, and still people are misunderstanding.

I have no kicking violation on this play.

But, no timeout should have been granted either, as the player did not have possession of the ball. The ball resting between the player's legs does not constitute player control, any more than a ball sitting next to a player on the floor does.

No timeout. No kicking violation.

OKREF Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:52am
I can understand why the timeout was granted. Wanting to shut down the play before something crazy happened. Not saying it was right by the book, just saying I understand.

Rich Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 866861)
I can understand why the timeout was granted. Wanting to shut down the play before something crazy happened. Not saying it was right by the book, just saying I understand.
Forget by the book. It's not right, PERIOD.

zm1283 Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 866863)
Forget by the book. It's not right, PERIOD.
Exactly. No TO should be granted here.

I'm with fiasco about the kicked ball too. If we take the OP at face value, I'm just letting this play out until he does something with his legs that help him gain control of the ball. Simply sitting there with your legs in front of you with the ball between them isn't enough for me for a violation, but YMMV.

letemplay Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:12pm
The OP seems to be saying he quickly called a TO before something "ugly" would happen next?? I dunno about most, but if I'm sitting upright and the ball is between my legs, unless someone is holding my arms back, I feel like within a gnats eyelash I'm going to be putting my hands on the ball. Perhaps the player felt the need to use a hand signal for the TO, not sure. I'd like to let the play go just a few more seconds at least...jmtcw

HawkeyeCubP Fri Dec 14, 2012 01:00pm
Did the Fed rulemakers come to their senses?
 
This has been discussed a lot before - with me being on the side of the NCAA rules having this right and the NFHS rules having it wrong because of the case play the NCAA provided for this specific play (removing the ambiguity of the definition of "strike"). Did something change from last year, when this was not a kicked ball per NFHS rules?

MD Longhorn Fri Dec 14, 2012 01:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 866857)
It's essential not to read too much into what someone says and just read their words. The OP never changed the scenario. You (and others) just read it wrong. The OP never said the ball was being controlled by, or touched by, the player's legs.
Right, but he says the ball was between his legs, and says the ball was "collected". That's where things changed. First it was collected. Then it was not in contact with anything at all.

If it was not touching anything, I'm COMPLETELY flummoxed by the time out call. Who would ever think to call a time out when the player in question was not even in contact with the ball, and was simply near it.

Camron Rust Fri Dec 14, 2012 01:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 866849)
Interesting. Post a situation. Don't like the response. Change the situation. Hmmmm.

Did he or did he not contact the ball intentionally with his legs. If yes - kicked ball. If no, then how did he have the ball "collected" without having it in his hands?

Yes, you erred... we just don't know which way yet.
FWIW, I did NOT read the OP as intentional contact with the legs....not a violation. The question was simply about blowing the whistle for a timeout when the player wasn't holding the ball.

Raymond Fri Dec 14, 2012 02:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiasco (Post 866857)
It's essential not to read too much into what someone says and just read their words. The OP never changed the scenario. You (and others) just read it wrong. The OP never said the ball was being controlled by, or touched by, the player's legs.



"Winds up" sounds like the ball must have bounced there and come to a rest, without any action by the player's legs.

Then he went on to clarify the same point, and still people are misunderstanding.

I have no kicking violation on this play.

But, no timeout should have been granted either, as the player did not have possession of the ball. The ball resting between the player's legs does not constitute player control, any more than a ball sitting next to a player on the floor does.

No timeout. No kicking violation.
Of course I don't what he edited from his original post but it is very clear why people would think A1 did something illegal:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Whitten (Post 866823)
Middle school game between two historically heated rivals. Two opposing players on the floor after a loose ball. A1 is sitting upright with his legs in a "V" and the ball winds up between his legs with neither of his hands on the ball. He verbally requests time-out and I grant it. My "flash reasoning" is he has the ball "collected" AND, the next thing to happen will be really ugly. Did Yours Truly err? Would you have granted the TO request?
Between does not mean below.


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