Coach's leash
 

A1 drives to basket, Trail calls push on B1, after whistle A1 takes another dribble and shoots. Trail call foul on the floor. Coach for A, on the other end of floor jumps up and screams, he is shooting, shooting foul, at thetop of his lungs, across half court. Trail says no, on the floor. 1st quarter 1:00 left. We go to the other end of the floor, and the coach is riding the same ref at baseline. Coach gets stuck, says "You have been waiting all night to do that". On the way to the table ref say's, coach you need to sit down and be quiet. Coach says "That's bullsh*t". Coach gets his second.

Now. My question is was that to fast for the second one? I don't believe so in this circumstance. He most certainly could have gotten one the first time he jumped up.

FYI: to finish the story. Coach goes nuts storms the court going after official, and makes contact.

Heck no, he had to go. Sounds like someone needs to switch to decaf, but he may not be coaching much longer if he's attacking officials.

Not too fast at all.

My only questions are which official told him to sit and who issued the 2nd T.

I hope it was a team effort.

Same official got both. First one was at the baseline, and the second was about the 28 ft mark.

2 or 3 man?

Regardless, once you stick a coach I like for someone else to go seatbelt him. That can sometimes help the situation be less volatile.

And I also like for someone else to toss him after one official has issued the first T. That way you reduce the appearance of it being personal.

But you do what you have to do and this coach was not trying to see the rest of the game apparently.

Pretty obvious the guy was going to get the second one and get tossed, but why in the world would the official who is reporting the T tell the Coach to "sit down and be quiet"???

Talk about throwing gas on a fire...if the Coach deserves the second one, give it and toss the clown. But we certainly don't need to be saying things like that to a Coach in a heated situation. Get away from the Coach...let partner inform him of the seatbelt...if he still wants to say something he will have to say it to me from across the court.

2 man. We as well would not prefer to have the same official give both T's in any situation. I think though, the way this happened it just couldn't be helped.

The coach has to know that after the first one, he just has to leave it be. The second official was coming in and was about the free throw line. It just happened so fast. I think the way the coach initially reacted to the non shooting foul certainly played a part in the first T.

Exactly.

Not too quick for the second. I have no problem calling both myself, too. Take care of business.

Exactly what language was used here?

As for the subsequent physical contact... there's a whole other box of worms. In FIBA, the new HC is stuck with a T as well - and 6 shots coming.

No. And if he did tell him to "sit down and shut up" on some level, it is still up to the coach to act professionally and not use inappropriate language. And saying "That's bull$!t" is usually going to get you stuck by many officials. Just because the official did not use the proper procedure does not excuse bad or unsporting behavior. I would talk to the official if I was an evaluator about that interaction, but when coaches roll the dice, they might just crap out with the wrong official.

Peace

I think people take the not giving two T's to a coach back to back too far. Of course, in an ideal world, maybe the other official gets the 2nd T, but if the coach crosses the line a 2nd time while you're there and before your partner(s) is/are in position to handle the coach, then sometimes you'll have to be the one to give the walking paper unless you want to give the coach a free pass.

As to this situation, the calling official may have set off the 2nd T by telling the coach to "sit down and be quiet." That tantamount to tell tell him to sit down and shut up and while he/she is required to sit down, one should probably let the calling official handle seat belt responsibilities for the coach while the calling official moves away from the area.

I actually had a very similar situation last year. GV coach, standing on the X screaming about a foul call. I calmly made the T signal as I arrived to report the foul. After lingering for a few seconds continuing to protest, as she turned back to the bench, the coach said "Bullsh....." The end of the word kinda trailed off. It didn't seem that loud to me, but I learned later that people across the gym heard it. I think it was more shock than anything else (I can't believe she actually said that) but I didn't call anything else. I tried, unsuccessfully, to justify it to myself by saying it was all part of the same incident, but my final opinion, then and now, is that failure to toss this coach at that point was the worst mistake I made all year.

This is a great point.

Also in my experience usually that kind of language is not acceptable to school administrators (above the AD for sure) and do not like their school to have adults act in ways that is outside of the mission of the education system. Of course you can have schools that take their famdom too far, but often I have found that kind of behavior is not what a school wants to represent. And if that was in the report that a coach cursed like that, it would get a lot of coaches in big trouble in this environment we live today. Maybe 20 years ago no one would have made a stink over this, but not today.

This was what the official said. The coach was talking the whole time between the first and second T's. His last statement before the 2nd was "That's bullsh*t".

He shouldn't say that. Let the coach hang himself.

Since this is an official's forum, we talk about things that officials do and try to devise ways to do them better or handle situations more effectively. Of course coaches should act professionally...no said they shouldn't. But the calling official did not need to make the comment that was made and all it did was to make the situation worse...would the coach have still been tossed without that comment being made? Probably...but that isn't the point.

I agree the 'sit down and be quiet' response was probably not appropriate, but what would most here advise he should have done? I'm assuming a simple 'that's enough coach' with a stop sign would be sufficient?

Official who issued the first T should have gotten out of there and his partner should have told the coach any version of, "Coach you've lost the box for the rest of the game and need to have a seat."

Sounds like this Coach would have been tossed regardless but I think we should always be looking at potential learning moments and the best ways to handle situations.

You Are Outta Here ...
 

Charge the first deserved technical foul. Noncalling partner should attempt to sit him down. "Bull****" gets him the second deserved technical foul, hopefully from the partner, but let's not split hairs. Hope he enjoys his cold seat on the bus.

Officials never use the phrase, "on the floor". Either the player is in the act of shooting, or he's not in the act of shooting. The proper call here really doesn't depend on whether, or not, he's on the floor.

Too late for "that's enough" as he already has been T'd up. Saying nothing is probably the best thing to do and if the coach continues with his diatribe then a 2nd 'T' would be my next action.

He already said, "That's enough coach" with his hands when he put them together into a T. He needs say nothing else. If the guy earns another T on his own after that - hopefully it comes from partner, but it doesn't have to.

The official was right to give the 2nd T and eject.....

Based on the OP, the coach was right to complain about the shot being waved off. The determining factor is NOT the # of steps after the foul is called....the shot begins once the player gathers the ball in his/her natural shooting motion.

BOTH official AND coach were each wrong in the situation described.

Am I missing something? Ball hadn't been gathered and coach was completely wrong start to finish. (with the exception of official's word choice)

:rolleyes: "Hey partner, he is coming on the court, calling me a MFer, but I gave him the first T. Can you give him the second? Please?"

If a coach comes after me and it is personal, I will handle my own business. I will allow any of my partners to do the same if a coach comes after them.

+1

+1,000,000

And there we have it...the answer to the entire situation. Flash the almighty stop sign and things fall right back into place. Sure, I give "the hand" to other adults all the time and they just accept that and stop what they are doing. My wife gives me "the hand" and I stop. Nope, that isn't something that would make the situation worse at all. :rolleyes:

Oh I am so glad I was not taking a drink when I read that. Absolutely agree though, sounds like the coach didn't even pause long enough between 1 and 2 for the official to report and clear out. Seems both that quick from the same guy were easily justified.

Good grief...the OP says the player TOOK ANOTHER DRIBBLE!!

Wrong.

Just. Wrong.

maybe I missed a post or two, but I don't think anyone other than twenty wort (which is two cents more than his opinion should be worth) banged on the official for calling both Ts in this situation...general comments about not liking one official to call both maybe, but nothing that rose to the level of needing the evil "roll eyes" smilie! :D

Do yourself a favor and read the OP again. I've never seen a player dribble after he gathered for a shot.

You partially quoted me and took it out of context for your eye roll.

I said what I prefer but also said you do what you have to do. If one official has to issue two Ts and toss a coach, fine.

My only point was that ideally the calling official isnt the one talking to the coach telling him to sit down. And is far enough away from the coach that one of his partners is closer, hears the MF, and takes care of business for the crew.

But again if it ends up like the situation in the OP then so be it.

Wrong. Try again. Reading is fundamental.

My comment was based on the fact that I like to plan for the extreme so I'm not surprised by most things that occur. It is probably fueled by my (cynical) opinions that humans are human and will often stoop very low when it fits their need. But I digress.

I had a situation very similar to the one I posted while living in the DC area. One partner calls a T on a coach, the coach is literally foaming at the mouth (not exaggerating) and comes onto the court after my partner. My second partner starts to make a move to call the second T and I get to him to stop him. My immediate thought was if that coach is going to come at my first partner literally like a rabid dog, he deserves the honor of chucking him out of the game. Fortunately, my partners were two of my good friends in the area and this whole thing was smooth (BNR probably knows exactly what two officials I'm talking about).

My "evil eye roll" was basked more on my own experience. Hey, can we get a stop sign smilie? It will work for everything. :rolleyes:

Ahhh, the old "sit down and shut up" trick. That really never works like you want it to. Remember, whatever you say to a coach should be short and sweet - a one liner. The other prerequisite is that whatever you say should be the end of the conversation.

Coach ejections are incredibly rare in basketball, in my experience. I've personally ejected 2 in 26 years of officiating basketball. On the first one, I called both technicals -- including one in the hallway at halftime when the coach followed us down the hall. On the second one I only called the second technical. The first one was sometime about 1991 and the second one was, I think, in 1995 or so. One was a JV boys game and the other was a varsity boys game.

My point is this -- it happens so infrequently, in my experience, that it's ludicrous to try to have some arbitrary rule of thumb for who should get the "honor" of doing it. On the other hand, a technical foul on a coach is *not* that rare of an experience, so the number of times that a coach flies off the handle and picks up a second one is incredibly rare, in my experience. Does this mean that it won't happen tomorrow? Of course not -- it could. But it likely won't.

Does this mean that we can't have best practice -- such as the official that calls the technical puts himself in the best position away from the coach and has a partner seatbelt the coach? Of course not. OTOH, if I'm reporting the technical foul and the coach flies off the handle or doesn't stop, I am *not* running away from him so my partner can come in and save the day. It's up to the coach to keep himself in the game, not up to me to ignore his behavior to keep him there.

Just want to make one thing clear. In this situation the calling official really had no option. He gave the first one and the coach followed him up the line and never stopped talking to the official. I might not have made that clear. He got stuck, and kept on even after the coach was told to sit down. This all happened in about 15 seconds.

I always thought of it as the "talk to the hand" mechanic -- one of the most dismissive things an adult could do to another adult.

Wow, 4 years between technicals, and you still ejected the guy! The second one must have been a doozie!
:D

Reading in context is your friend. :D

Questions: Was the calling official table side when he first stuck the coach? After sticking the coach, did the official walk/jog to the table area along the same sideline that the coach was on? Did everyone in the gym hear him say "That was bull...!"

He was table side. Walked up the court towards the table, coach right on his heels. Not everyone heard it, however everyone at the table heard it.

I ask these silly questions because I have learned that there are ways to avoid those situations. Obviously this coach went a little nuts. BUT, have you ever noticed that if you walk by a barking dog in a cage, the closer you get the louder they bark? Step back and they quiet down a little.

And this is why I mention it. I see it mentioned like it is really a tool officials should use...and after the stop sign everything is going to change. Yeah right. If you want to push someone over the edge, give them a stop sign.

Now I could use an evil eye roll. :rolleyes:

I've tried it a few times, and ended up giving a T more often than not. I prefer to talk to the coach, using words. I know it works for some (because they told me so), so I'm not going to completely dismiss its use. I don't, however, recommend it, for the same reasons tomegun and Rich mention here.

I've only tossed one coach, and assistant in a summer game last summer. He earned the second T before I could finish reporting the first T so called and reported both.

I did get some good feedback from a partner following a player T in another summer game. I apparently looked pretty pissed when I called it, and my partner told me as much. The main point was, we're the only ones out there who are able to maintain order in a tense situation, and we can't do that if we aren't calm.

Telling the coach to "sit down and be quiet" is only going to fuel the fire. It probably would have exploded anyway, but I'd rather be able to look back and say I didn't push any unnecessary buttons.

Sometimes.

Other times they just go more nuts...dogs and coaches.

As Rich and Tom both have pointed out, there are nice rules of thumb, but sometimes the rules of thumb just don't fit. This OP sounds like one of those times...

For the record, I have ejected three coaches also in over 20 years of officiating. In all 3 cases I gave all the Ts involved. One instance was a case where a coach jumped up and yelled at an opposing player "You little motherf---er"

I frankly don't care if everyone in the gym heard it.

Good point!

I think that in the OP, this crew might not have been able to avoid it. However, there are also mechanics that could have limited this coaches access to the official, i.e. switching on fouls. In the OP, they did not switch:

This tells me that the calling official on the original common foul should have been administering the throw in on the baseline (2-man game), preferably lane line opposite table side. There are reasons why we switch on fouls.

I always cringe when I hear partners tell stories that involve them telling a coach to "Sit down and be quiet". I have discovered that a simple "That's enough" or "I've heard enough" works just fine most of the time. I use the stop sign sometimes depending on the situation.

Interesting. Say no one else heard it, but the official, is a technical merited? Moreover, is the ejection of the coach merited?
What is put in the report? Can it be corroborated? (playing Devil's Advocate here)

There was a switch. The explosion didn't happen on the next trip, it was a couple of trips later and the calling official ended up on the table side of the floor

If a coach tells me a call I made is bullsh*t he is geting a technical foul. I once had a coach whisper to me that he was getting cheated. I gave him a T. He said why did I give him a T. Nobody in the gym heard him say it but me. I just told him he wasn't going to call me a cheater even if I was the only one who heard it.

That makes more sense. Sorry, that was bothering me since I first read it.

I cannot think of a single time I have ever used the stop sign on a coach, or told a coach to sit down and be quiet or shut up or stop talking, etc...as an adult, I would not respond well to someone doing that to me. So I say things like "OK, Coach. You made your point. Time to move on."

Technical fouls are not personal, they are business; they are managing the game. We should not be in too many situations where the coach can whisper something to you. A good technical is one where there is no question as to why it happened AND once adjudicated makes the game flow better.

It wasn't personal for me. He called my partner and I cheaters. That deserves a T no matter who hears it.

We are always better when we can interact with the coach directly without the use of our hands.

Yes, it's warranted. And the day my assigner doesn't accept my word for this is the day I quit. I am not worried about corroboration, other wise I'd use the dam n stop sign.

Another point for the stop sign!:p

Generally true, but I'm sorry - if a coach tells an official that he's cheating, T him up. Volume doesn't matter. Who else heard it doesn't matter.

I agree that when a coach goes too far and questions an official's integrity they have paid in full for their technical.
I also worked in associations where every technical foul on a coach requires a report both from the coach (or A.D.) and the crew to be filed. The association will also ask for game film to accompany this report being filed by the A.D. It's because of this I ask these questions.

Did your partner seem to think that this was a bad thing or not necessarily so?
Around here, we have had numerous conversation about demeanor on the court. It is, like most things, a case of you can't win.

We have one guy who frowns all the time. People don't like that.

"He's mad at us."

We have another guy who smiles all the time. People don't like that.

"He's laughing at us."

I, personally, find the smile to be much worse, particularly when directed at the coach on the short end of the last call, even though in this case I know that it is not done with evil intent.

So, having studied all this at length, in a serious game situation I try to remain expressionless on the court. But people don't like that either.

"Look at him, he doesn't even care."

In this case, it was a negative. He had just called a T on their coach for getting a bit too expressive while demanding a traveling call with less than a minute and his team down by a handful. Mine came shortly after that, when his player essentially did the same thing while yelling me instead of playing defense on a transition play. B2 then decided to roll the ball away. Rather than let my partner deal with that particular aspect, I delayed the reporting of the T to tell him it was in his best interest to retrieve the ball.

Tourney director came up afterwards and informed us that he loved the way we handled the end of that game, including the Ts and making the kid get the ball. But I think, in the end, my Sergeant face could have inflamed things a bit further. I need to work on keeping my face calm there.

I do have one particular situation where I put up the stop sign. It's when my partner makes a call from the Lead or from the C opposite the table and the coach gets up clearly in reaction to the call. I do it mainly so the coach doesn't distract from my partner reporting the foul. Of course, I'm not using the classic 'Crossing Guard" stop sign stance :D, more of pushing my hand(s) towards the ground as in "slow down, Coach"

I totally agree. I know the "stop sign" is something I almost never use an only used because for some reason some evaluators or assignors think it is a good idea, but almost all the time did not stop anything. It usually caused more issues.

Peace

I used to be a a big stop sign guy, because evaluators wanted to see it. I grew out of it, except for situations that have already been brought up. I found there are other ways to acknowledge a coach. Plus, in a camp once, the lead evaluator says to me while watching film, "Man, you look like one of the Supremes! How many f'in' Stop Signs you gonna give that cat?" Of course 30 seconds later I stuck the coach on the film. The evaluator yells out, "'Bout g'damn time!"

That is the problem. The evaluators are looking for these displays to show that you did something or said something, rather than just looking at the official's track record to the coach's track record, we have to use these visual accounts that do nothing and only make the coach (who does not care what an official evaluator thinks) to get them upset because you embarrassed them.

Peace

Stop sign doesn't work if you don't follow up with a T. No credibility and coach then knows the stop sign doesn't mean anything.

Isn't the stop sign supposed to work because you say "stop" right?

Peace

Correct. But if the coach continues after the stop sign and you let it go. The stop sign doesn't mean anything.

Not disputing that fact, but it does not mean anything if a coach continues and does not get the message. Many of have been sold that it stops things and that is the point of the opposition that Tommy and myself are raising.

You might as well say, "Sit down and shut up" when using that signal IMHO. And we all know how well that statement works out right?

Peace

There will always be a group of officials who try to avoid calling a technical foul at all costs. It's easier on them, they figure. They won't have to justify it to an assignor or state office. Just 1:15 or so and they can be on their way with a check in their pockets.

I have no time for those people. I had a coach tell us that we cost him a game they were losing by 11 points with 1:30 left a few weeks ago. I could've ignored him. I didn't - I issued a technical foul -- he had tried to bait me by saying words like "terrible" and "horrible" as I went past the previous few possessions. The coach immediately sat down and didn't say another word.

Don't be the partner I have to clean up after. Don't be the official that the coach uses as an excuse when I don't let him get away with nonsense he got away with before.

I called a technical foul last night, I did not need a sign to keep it from happening. The issue is not being afraid of calling a technical, the issue is does the sign that everyone loves to advocate really accomplish the goal? I have stopped a many of Ts being called just by going to a coach quietly. When I give the "stop sign" a T is fast approaching or being accused of making the issue personal. This is not about fear of anything it is does it help the game as it is widely stated?

I am just saying that is clearly up for debate.

Peace

Exactly, Jeff. I have a lot more success with words than gestures.

I don't always use a stop sign. I use it when I need to. Had a coach Monday night say he got a T in a tournament, and never got a stop sign. He said that if he had gotten one, he would have not said another word. Also said the opposing coach got 2 stops from the same official, and he never got a T.

I just know with me, if I give a coach the stop sign, the next time he offers his opinion on a call, I am giving him a T.

Not really. :)

Stop sign is just the chicken-S way of trying to get the coach to stop behaving badly without having the courage to give the T he earned. There's no such thing as a half-technical. They earn it, have the balls to announce it.

All I am really saying is it is not a one-size-fits-all tool. I will just put it this way, this has some other cultural, gender and sometimes racial elements to this that I have found that if used to the right or wrong person, it will blow up in your face. Because if you to the certain areas that will be seen as very disrespectful and you might have more problems then giving just one T, you might have to give more and more. I just think we have other tools in the arsenal and I like to step directly to a coach and quietly tell them something so that when the sh*t hits the fan, they cannot say I tried to show them up or make it personal. Does not mean they still cannot say those things, but the stop sign has shown to be just that in many eyes of people I have been around. Better yet, just give the darn T and we will not have to worry about what you did to exacerbate the issue as well. And if I was 6'5" and 250 of muscle, then a lot of that would go out the window because I hardly see many coaches mess with guys that big about anything. ;)

Peace

Must be the part of the country I am in. Here, I have never seen a coach get mad at a stop sign. It is understood, coaches would rather see a stop sign, they then know to quit yapping. Don't know how many times I have just said coach that is enough, hold up the stop sign, not making a big scene, and the coach says ok, and never says another word.

Why are you dragging me into the conversation?

Oh wait, you said all muscle....nevermind

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/ima...ping/riker.gif

One thing I'll add: Have your partner's back, too. If a player is saying something nasty about them, please T them up. Don't come to me afterwards and tell me to keep an eye on said player.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Based on what I have seen, I thought that described you much better. On second thought, I did say the all muscles part to not involve you in this part of the discussion. ;)

Peace

So he told you that you were horrible and terrible, but that didn't get him a T??

I would have whacked him in a heartbeat for saying that about me or my partner.

So maybe others have had to clean up after you also??

I was kidding:p

Bingo! It is just disrespectful and condescending. When someone crosses my line, they are pretty much getting a T. I would like the communication to be as nice as possible up until the point where communication is shut off or my line is crossed.

Funny story - I had a game last week that set basketball back 10 years...the game was not played well on either side. The coach takes one of his players out and the kid goes to the end of the bench and kicks the chair over. I'm the old Lead, new Trail tableside and whack the kid. After we handle business, we go up and down a few times and the coach is still standing (I left him alone on purpose and my partners...I am working with the same two tonight and will address that). During a timeout I go and tell him that he must remain seated because he got an indirect technical foul. After explaining to him why, you know what he said - keep in mind the action of the kid was never in doubt? He said, "Well you shouldn't have called it then!" What a piece of work. The stop sign with a coach like this would have set it off up in there!

Wow. Some coaches just don't get it. I had to explain the seat belt to the HC after I tossed the AC last summer.

Does the assistant have the seat belt when head coach gets run?

If the head coach loses the use of his box, no one on that team can use it for the rest of the game, even if the original head coach is tossed.

Yea, after I thought about it, that seems to be a no brainer.

No, he didn't say, "You are horrible" or "You are terrible" as I went past. He muttered those single words under his breath and, you know what? It didn't reach the level of stopping the game to whack him at that point.

Clearly he was trying to draw a reaction or a technical, because when I obliged, he sat down and shut up.

One thing I've never been accused of is leaving things for others to clean up. So this is a first, then.

Just asking questions. Didn't accuse anyone of anything...

I know. I was being facetious.

It was a time and a place thing. Under 2 minutes, he's frustrated, I know what he's doing. But nobody's going to tell me I cost a team a game and get away with it. Especially when the margin is double digits.

Agreed.

I would whack him in a heartbeat for that, too.

And than give him a stop sign!

...not trying to be a smarta$$ (well, maybe a little);)...but, didn't you "handle business" and tell the Coach he was seatbelted when you initially whacked his upset player that kicked a chair?

...if so, did the Coach ignore you and stand anyway?

...just asking.

When I T a HS head coach or bench personnel I'll say to my partner(s) "we need to make sure he is sitting down after we're done with the free throws".

Personally I see no reason to rush right over there to tell the HC he needs to sit.

This is spot on. My partners didn't really handle business and I had to tell the coach. To my utter dismay, I worked with the same partners last night and may have had something happen that is worse IMO. With 1:59 to go in the game, the coach of the team winning by 17 or 18 is upset and requests a timeout after I call a foul. I tell him OK - I was going to give him the timeout after I reported the foul - and he says something that is way over my line. I whack him and walk away. This morning, an official that was in the stands told me it was a good T, but the coach said, "That is a bull*** T" as I was inbounding the ball. I have already sent my partners an email to find out if either of them heard it. Not good.