Pushing defender away with ball?

just another ref

Had a short but somewhat spirited discussion on this subject several years ago involving now legendary forum members.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketball/29159-push-ball.html

APG

I think a strict reading would mean this is a technical foul, and I used to subscribe to the philosophy that this is a T or nothing.

If I were presented with this play though now, I'd go with the personal foul.

Thumper68

Adam wrote
what other option would you consider?

On the court at the time I was trying to decide between PC and push (team control). The more I thought it out it seemed that a push (team control) was really PC. My initial thought was a PC foul, but my lower level of experience made me hesitate, the ball was stolen, and the moment was gone. Now I realize that my initial reaction was correct thanks to this discussion. If/when I see this again it will be a PC foul.

OKREF

Thumper68 wrote
On the court at the time I was trying to decide between PC and push (team control). The more I thought it out it seemed that a push (team control) was really PC. My initial thought was a PC foul, but my lower level of experience made me hesitate, the ball was stolen, and the moment was gone. Now I realize that my initial reaction was correct thanks to this discussion. If/when I see this again it will be a PC foul.

I don't think it really matters. A player control foul, is a team control foul. Either way it was on the offense and no shoots would be given.

APG

Thumper68 wrote
On the court at the time I was trying to decide between PC and push (team control). The more I thought it out it seemed that a push (team control) was really PC. My initial thought was a PC foul, but my lower level of experience made me hesitate, the ball was stolen, and the moment was gone. Now I realize that my initial reaction was correct thanks to this discussion. If/when I see this again it will be a PC foul.

Doesn't matter if you called team or player control in this situation...either way you aren't shooting free throws.

Raymond

tomegun wrote
Depending on the severity, you aren't? Again, if I was a player that used every edge - and I did - I would leave a trail of defenders with bloody noses as a coasted to the basket. ...?

Nah, the first bloody nose will result in a Technical Foul, probably Flagrant.

Raymond

Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?

Smitty

Rich wrote
Yes, I would. It's not a nit I'm willing to pick. If A is holding onto the ball and uses the ball to displace the defender, to me it's no different than a player using his hand/arm to push off.

This seems clear to me as well. I don't see how you can look at it any other way.

just another ref

BadNewsRef wrote
Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?

Yes In this instance, the ball is effectively an extension of the hand.

fullor30

Thumper68 wrote
I saw this in a 6th grade boy’s parochial league game last night. A1 gets the ball in high post. B1 has very tight legal guarding position, up tight on A1 almost touching torso to torso. B2 comes up behind and also is guarding A1. A1 takes the ball, places it in B1’s chest and pushes him away, attempts to dribble away and B2 promptly steals the ball and we are going the other way. As a 3rd year official I had not seen this yet and it happened so fast that I had no call, and B2 now has the ball. This seems to be a foul, but is it just a team control pushing foul, or is this a player control foul? I know that 4-7-2(d) states “The player with the ball may not push the torso of the guard to an advantage to pass, shoot, or dribble.”, but does it apply since A1 used the ball to push. Hind sight has me thinking that is was a player control foul, but I would like some input.

Thanks,

Those Catholics

tomegun

BadNewsRef wrote
Nah, the first bloody nose will result in a Technical Foul, probably Flagrant.

Exactly my point. Where is the line?

rwest

Adam wrote
So you're calling a pc foul for contact with the ball?

Adam, are you going to ignore the displacement just because the offensive player used the ball instead of his/her arm/hand?

Raymond

BadNewsRef wrote
Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?

just another ref wrote
Yes In this instance, the ball is effectively an extension of the hand.

I've heard that as a concept before. I don't see me calling a PC foul in this situation.

Camron Rust

BadNewsRef wrote
Tic-Tock.

A1 dribbling at a decent rate of speed, stops dribble, loses his balance, sticks the ball out with 2 hands (without dragging his pivot foot) in reaction to losing his balance and the ball contacts B1 who stumbles backwards as a result.

So this is a PC foul?

Nope. I'm only calling a foul when a player is pushed with the ball when it is clear the offensive player was using it as an extension of their arms explicitly for the purpose of moving their opponent. Otherwise, it is nothing....I'm not treating it quite the same as other situations.

APG

rwest wrote
Adam, are you going to ignore the displacement just because the offensive player used the ball instead of his/her arm/hand?

I was understanding Adam's point to be whether this is a personal foul versus a technical foul...

Welpe

APG wrote
I think a strict reading would mean this is a technical foul, and I used to subscribe to the philosophy that this is a T or nothing.

If I were presented with this play though now, I'd go with the personal foul.

Well I had this somewhat related gem a few years ago...http://forum.officiating.com/basketball/56431-flagrant-intentional.html

Raymond

Camron Rust wrote
Nope. I'm only calling a foul when a player is pushed with the ball when it is clear the offensive player was using it as an extension of their arms explicitly for the purpose of moving their opponent. Otherwise, it is nothing....I'm not treating it quite the same as other situations.

I can live with that. But I'm thinking that if I see someone intentionally push a ball into someone with enough force to cause that person to fall back then I'll have an Unsporting T. Otherwise I would have nothing.

I want to say that years ago in a Men's Wreck League game I called a T on a player for intentionally hitting a shorter opponent on the top of the head with the ball.

just another ref

BadNewsRef wrote
I've heard that as a concept before. I don't see me calling a PC foul in this situation.

Conceivably, possibly due to poor positioning, 🙂 it might be difficult to see whether the actual contact took place with the ball, the bare hand, or both.
Displacement/advantage gained seems to be the important part, in my opinion.

Welpe

BadNewsRef wrote
I want to say that years ago in a Men's Wreck League game I called a T on a player for intentionally hitting a shorter opponent on the top of the head with the ball.

I had that exact thing in the link I just posted...girl's Freshman. I went intentional but flagrant T might've been better.

Adam

rwest wrote
Adam, are you going to ignore the displacement just because the offensive player used the ball instead of his/her arm/hand?

Keep reading:

Adam wrote
Yeah, I'd call it depending on the severity. I probably would have questioned myself later, but ...

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