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-   -   Subbing during FTAs (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/93128-subbing-during-ftas.html)

Amesman Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:11pm

Subbing during FTAs
 
Granted, sometimes underlevels especially get loose with reporting subs to the table in a timely manner. But I have to know:

Last night, as T, I disallowed a sub after a made FTA because I felt the coach ran her to the table too late. I felt the sub should have been there by the time I checked the table after the first FTA was converted.

So my question is does 3-3-1c mean that if I check the table for a sub waiting to come in after the first FTA is made and nobody's there, I need to let the sub in anyway if the table buzzes after the 2nd FTA is made? I'm not turning around again to see if someone's at the table while the teams are starting to hustle down the court after the made 2nd FTA.

I realize the scoreboard operator doesn't dictate when subs come in, but his buzzer did stop play before the ball was subsequently inbounded ... And now I realize that one way or another, I probably did commit an error by not allowing the sub in once play was stopped. Or did I? Coach was pretty sarcastic a little while later when he asked if, during a TO, he could sub her in now.

And here I was, feeling pretty good about what I thought was a not-too-bad game last night ...

OKREF Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 865178)
Granted, sometimes underlevels especially get loose with reporting subs to the table in a timely manner. But I have to know:

Last night, as T, I disallowed a sub after a made FTA because I felt the coach ran her to the table too late. I felt the sub should have been there by the time I checked the table after the first FTA was converted.

So my question is does 3-3-1c mean that if I check the table for a sub waiting to come in after the first FTA is made and nobody's there, I need to let the sub in anyway if the table buzzes after the 2nd FTA is made? I'm not turning around again to see if someone's at the table while the teams are starting to hustle down the court after the made 2nd FTA.

I realize the scoreboard operator doesn't dictate when subs come in, but his buzzer did stop play before the ball was subsequently inbounded ... And now I realize that one way or another, I probably did commit an error by not allowing the sub in once play was stopped. Or did I? Coach was pretty sarcastic a little while later when he asked if, during a TO, he could sub her in now.

And here I was, feeling pretty good about what I thought was a not-too-bad game last night ...

What if the sub was for the shooter? You're not letting them in? Unless the sub just came out and must wait for a tick, I am letting any sub come in after the second made free throw.

Amesman Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 865179)
What if the sub was for the shooter? You're not letting them in? Unless the sub just came out and must wait for a tick, I am letting any sub come in after the second made free throw.

Good point. But sub was not for the shooter, just to clarify. My point might be: If the FT shooter has the ball/is shooting, are we letting a sub in who rushes the table after I've turned my back to the table?

I'm getting the idea I was too tight on this one but would like to know the best interpretation.

bob jenkins Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 865178)
Granted, sometimes underlevels especially get loose with reporting subs to the table in a timely manner. But I have to know:

Last night, as T, I disallowed a sub after a made FTA because I felt the coach ran her to the table too late. I felt the sub should have been there by the time I checked the table after the first FTA was converted.

So my question is does 3-3-1c mean that if I check the table for a sub waiting to come in after the first FTA is made and nobody's there, I need to let the sub in anyway if the table buzzes after the 2nd FTA is made? I'm not turning around again to see if someone's at the table while the teams are starting to hustle down the court after the made 2nd FTA.

I realize the scoreboard operator doesn't dictate when subs come in, but his buzzer did stop play before the ball was subsequently inbounded ... And now I realize that one way or another, I probably did commit an error by not allowing the sub in once play was stopped. Or did I? Coach was pretty sarcastic a little while later when he asked if, during a TO, he could sub her in now.

And here I was, feeling pretty good about what I thought was a not-too-bad game last night ...

First, you need to do what's standard in your area in terms of the timing. Here, if the player was on his/her way to the table before the ball was bounced to the free-thrower, we'd (probably) allow the sub.

Second, after a FT is made is a valid opportunity to sub. So, if the sub was at the table, ....

And, you probably should know this or take a quick look and let the sub in.

BillyMac Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:20pm

About To Make The Ball Live ...
 
The substitute must be at the X when the official is about to make the ball live, that is, about to put the ball at the disposal of a free throw shooter, or about to put the ball at the disposal of a throw-er-in-er. The key words are "about to".

Nevadaref Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:22pm

You were not correct and you do need to check the table for subs following the final FTA being successful. That is a dead ball with the clock stopped and thus by rule a substitution opportunity for both teams. There is no requirement for the substitute to report any earlier than that dead ball.

No wonder the coach was sarcastic towards you, you were inventing your own rules!

OKREF Wed Dec 05, 2012 04:22pm

I don't care when they get to the table, I am letting them in.

Amesman Wed Dec 05, 2012 05:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 865184)
You were not correct and you do need to check the table for subs following the final FTA being successful. That is a dead ball with the clock stopped and thus by rule a substitution opportunity for both teams. There is no requirement for the substitute to report any earlier than that dead ball.

No wonder the coach was sarcastic towards you, you were inventing your own rules!

Don't bother ordering dessert for me tonight. I'll be over here in the corner, eating the humble pie I made and baked all for myself ...

Don't know what came over me, but I'm now the better for it.

Nevadaref Wed Dec 05, 2012 09:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amesman (Post 865199)
Don't bother ordering dessert for me tonight. I'll be over here in the corner, eating the humble pie I made and baked all for myself ...

Don't know what came over me, but I'm now the better for it.

Good for all of us once in a while.

Last night I mistakenly granted a TO to the asst coach! :o
He was sitting where the head coach was just two seconds ago. The head coach had stood up and walked about 10 feet away.

The head coach was cool about it though and said that he wanted the TO anyway, so I just charged it and moved on.

just another ref Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 865183)
The substitute must be at the X when the official is about to make the ball live, that is, about to put the ball at the disposal of a free throw shooter, or about to put the ball at the disposal of a throw-er-in-er. The key words are "about to".

This is based on what?

Nevadaref Thu Dec 06, 2012 06:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 865183)
The substitute must be at the X when the official is about to make the ball live, that is, about to put the ball at the disposal of a free throw shooter, or about to put the ball at the disposal of a throw-er-in-er. The key words are "about to".

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 865250)
This is based on what?

This sentence in 3-3-2: "If the ball is about to
become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld."

just another ref Thu Dec 06, 2012 02:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 865271)
This sentence in 3-3-2: "If the ball is about to
become live, the beckoning signal should be withheld."

This does not relate to the OP, where a buzzer sounds after a made free throw. At this point, it doesn't matter when the sub arrived at the X.

BillyMac Thu Dec 06, 2012 03:32pm

Buzz, Buzz, Buzz ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 865385)
This does not relate to the OP, where a buzzer sounds after a made free throw. At this point, it doesn't matter when the sub arrived at the X.

But it will certainly matter for the second substitute who comes to the X at the table. I'm not going to play musical substitutes.

Nevadaref Thu Dec 06, 2012 04:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 865385)
This does not relate to the OP, where a buzzer sounds after a made free throw. At this point, it doesn't matter when the sub arrived at the X.

The horn should not be sounded until after the substitute has reported, so why would the "buzzer" sound after a made FT unless a substitute is waiting at the X? If there's no one there, then we keep going. That was the point that BillyM was making.

Take a look at 3-3-1d.
If entry is at any time other than between quarters, and a substitute who is
entitled and ready to enter reports to the scorer, the scorer shall use a
sounding device or game horn, if, or as soon as, the ball is dead and the
clock is stopped.

just another ref Thu Dec 06, 2012 04:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 865430)
The horn should not be sounded until after the substitute has reported, so why would the "buzzer" sound after a made FT unless a substitute is waiting at the X?

It shouldn't and it didn't. In the OP, if I understand correctly, the official refused to allow a sub after the second free throw because there was no sub at the table when he checked after the first.


Quote:

I disallowed a sub after a made FTA because I felt the coach ran her to the table too late. I felt the sub should have been there by the time I checked the table after the first FTA was converted.

I'm not turning around again to see if someone's at the table while the teams are starting to hustle down the court after the made 2nd FTA.
There is ample time for a sub to report while the ball is at the disposal of the shooter for the second free throw.

Raymond Thu Dec 06, 2012 04:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 865435)
It shouldn't and it didn't. In the OP, if I understand correctly, the official refused to allow a sub after the second free throw because there was no sub at the table when he checked after the first.




There is ample time for a sub to report while the ball is at the disposal of the shooter for the second free throw.

Ames has already done a Mea Culpa for not allowing the sub. Didn't think we were still debating that aspect.

Nevadaref Thu Dec 06, 2012 05:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 865435)
It shouldn't and it didn't. In the OP, if I understand correctly, the official refused to allow a sub after the second free throw because there was no sub at the table when he checked after the first.

Oh, I see the disconnection now. I was responding to the post which you quoted BillyMac and my citation was to support what he wrote, which was for a more general situation.

We agree about the situation in the OP. That substitute met the requirement of the rule which I cited and what BillyMac said.

BillyMac Thu Dec 06, 2012 06:02pm

The Forum Of Babel ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 865439)
Oh, I see the disconnection now. I was responding to the post which you quoted BillyMac and my citation was to support what he wrote, which was for a more general situation. We agree about the situation in the OP. That substitute met the requirement of the rule which I cited and what BillyMac said.

You know just another ref, and Nevadaref, and this goes for me, as well. We all have to stop drinking adult beverages while we're posting on the Forum.


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