Approval of Final Score
 

I have seen this debated several times on this board and I've searched the archives and don't have a definitive answer.


Double overtime game.

At the 30 seconds remaining mark, officials verify everything matches with scoreboard, book and visiting team book.

At horn, officials give thumps up to table and run off court

Scoreboard reflects visiting team 60 home team 59

As officials are leaving gym, home team coach presents home book that indicates score is actually tied 59 all.

Assume there is no mistake in book.

What did we approve when we ran off the floor - scoreboard or book?

What do we do as officials?
Regardless of answer, what should coach do?

The scoreboard is for show, the scorebook is the official record of the game. Not sure how that would happen without someone saying something is wrong. That is after all why it is recommended that the scorer and the visiting team scorers should be sitting together to prevent this issue. I guess in that situation you continue the game, but why did they wait until the game was basically over to point this out?

Peace

Rut,

Not basically, actually. The officials did all preventative measures. "Do we match"? Thumps at leaving. After game, home team presents book that indicates score is tied?

How do we proceed?

I was not referring to the officials doing things. I am talking about what the teams would be complaining about or making a fuss about the situation. I almost never go to the table to ask them anything about the score. If there is something wrong that is usually going to be mentioned by the participants and certainly the visiting team or team not in charge of the book. Then I might review the books or try to find the discrepancy, but I do not spend much time worrying about the books. I also do not give any "thumbs up" to the table as the score is approved when you leave the floor. In this case you did not leave the floor so the score was not approved.

Obviously if the book has the score tied, you continue if you cannot find a mistake. What else do you think should be done? I am just surprised that one of the teams did not say the scoreboard was wrong as they tend to do if you miss anything in my experience. I have had games where they think a 3 point shot was awarded and they make a big issue out of that one point in the middle of the 1st Quarter. I am just wondering why did it take that incident to make someone aware of the score in such a close game.

Peace

They had already left/approved.

He says they were "leaving the gym." That is different than left the gym. And by rule you have to leave the visual confines to approve the score.

"As officials are leaving gym, home team coach presents home book that indicates score is actually tied 59 all."

2-2-4:

The jurisdiction of the officials is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area.

NOTE: The officials retain clerical authority over the contest through the completion of any reports, including those imposing disqualifications, which are responsive to actions occurring while the officials had jurisdiction. State associations may intercede in the event of unusual incidents that occur before, during or after the officials’ jurisdiction has ended or in the event that a contest is terminated prior to the conclusion of regulation play.

So unless everyone had left you can still proceed with the game. Also the new clarification might allow the game to continue in a situation like this if the state chooses to get involved.

Peace

Rut,

Assume you left visual confines and approved final score.
Assume book was accurate but scoreboard was inaccurate
What did you approve - book or scoreboard?
Also, assume you did all you could do as as an official - i.e. checked and verified with table personnel that all was accurate before you left visual confines

Then, after you had showered and dressed, the coach presents an accurate book that reflects that the score is tied.

What do you do as officials? What does the cooach do?

He is talking about leaving the facility after they had showered...not just leaving the court at the buzzer.

I'd say you're approving the score as you believed it to be...perhaps as was indicated on the board. If the book had something different, even though it is the official record, they must make it known before you're out of the court area. If not, it is too late.

Camron,

I'm not disagreeing as your post certainly sounds logical. Is this the general opinion of most of the discussion board or has there always been a difference of opinion on this discussion board? I found a few threads in the archives and they didn't seem to have a final answer?????

If the losing coach asked for advice, would you suggest he kick it up to your state bigwigs?

+1

The scoreboard is a representation of the scorebook. If they don't match, I agree, it's up to the table to fix it or get the officials' attention before they leave.

The officials are leaving because they believe the score is NOT tied. Once they're out of the room, the score is IN FACT not tied. :)

As for advice to the losing coach: get a better scorekeeper. My state wouldn't do anything about this outcome, and I think few would.

When I "check the book" I physically look at the "running score" to see what are the last boxes checked on each side. That's the "score I'm approving" and it will be the same as the scoreboard (or we'll find out then why not).

If later it's discovered that the detailed notations don't add up to the running score? Too bad.

That has been answered. The scoreboard is for show. It is the book that you verify. So ... my question is - what exactly did you do when you "checked and verified"? The most important thing you are verifying is the score. How could you look at the book, see V 59, H 59, and say, "All right, great, lets shower!"
See previous question. What exactly are you verifying if not the score?

It's out of your hands at this point. Prepare for some yelling. At you. Probably by several people.

Report that the officials verified that the score was tied and left anyway.

Coming from you, this surprises me. From this forum, I know you to be a good official. You know the scoreboard is just a pretty bunch of lights. You (I would have assumed) should also know that we verify the veracity of the BOOK (after all... it's the book that is your official record of all that happened ... they don't ship the scoreboard off somewhere).

Seems to me the score is tied. Kick it up to the state, maybe they'll allow OT to be played, maybe they won't. Good luck.

But The Shower Is Running ...
 

Several years ago we had two officials (in another little corner of Connecticut, not mine) come back out of the locker room to handle a situation like this. Their career headed south after that fateful decision.

Like ...
 

Post o' the week.

As an official, there's no way we continue play, though. The officials were told the book matched what they saw in lights, which was a win. I have no idea if someone altered that after I left the court. Let the state sort it out.

Well if you are not talking about right after the game has ended (which was not clear to me), then there is nothing you can do. Game over. Not your problem. I also do not care what a coach can or cannot do, I do not coach. My job is done and I am going home. Again this is why both scorers sit next to each other so that this can be prevented instantly. And if not then someone on the bench keeping track should know all kinds of things as it relates to score and fouls so something is not done incorrectly. I put this on the teams to let that happen.

Peace

It is, but when you look over at the table before you leave the floor, you are asking the scorer if they differ from what is on the board. When they do not indicated otherwise, you have verified a score that is equivalent to the board. You don't go over and count of the score in the book or even look at the #'s to see what they are. The scorer has their job and if they indicate that the score is not tied and their is no reason to disbelieve them, then the score is not tied. If the book later says otherwise, then that is irrelevant.

I wonder if that's a local thing then. I'm not checking to see if the book matches the scoreboard (heck, I've seen times when home loses that they shut the thing off almost immediately... not often, but I've seen it) - I'm looking to see that the books match. And yes, I'm looking at numbers (not the individual counts, of course ... but the last circled number for each team).

If it's a close game, I and my partner, have already gotten with the table to make sure everything is correct. If they say it is, at the end of the game we are getting off the floor. Once you leave the visual confines of the floor, it is over.

My opinion on this is that you've approved the official score, which is recorded in the official scorebook. That means you allowed the game to end in a tie. (I don't mean that to be accusatory; it's just the fact. Maybe the scorers screwed you or whatever.) The state association will now decide how/if to break the tie.

That is correct.

Wow.

Rule reference please?

Last I heard, the home book was the OFFICIAL score.

Let's Be Specific ...
 

More specifically, the running score in the home scorebook is the official score.

ART. 4 . . . The jurisdiction of the officials is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area.

Once you're out the door, the game is over.

But what exactly have you approved when you left the floor? What you BELIEVED the score to be. You are approving one team as having won the game. Right or wrong, that is what was done and that is what the rule above says is final. What they tell you the book says or should have said after you're gone is not relevant.

I don't know anyone that goes over to the book after the horn...we certainly check at a timeout/break before the game ends and that should generally take care of it. We make eye contact with the scorer on the way out and if there is something different that they have, they must get your attention before you clear the gym.

Yep.

Exactly what that text says--"the final score." Now if you wish to know what is the final score, then you must consult the rules book.

2-11-4

The scorer shall:

. . .

This is a tough one. It should have brought to your attention prior to you leaving the visual confines of the court, once that happens the officials can't change anything. It seems that the state association will have to get involved.

All nice but the fundamental element is that the game is over. The state may certainly step in and declare something to be different but none of what you have said cancels the fact that the officials jurisdiction has ended.

As for your last citation, that is referring to power outages, fires, tornadoes, riots, and other kinds of external events that cause the game to be stopped. It isn't intended to be used to correct an error by the officials in declaring the wrong final score.

Quite true, and precisely why I agreed with this previous post.
The only way that the game officials should return to the court and continue the game is if they have first consulted with someone from the governing authority such as the state association.

True, but doesn't have to be limited to just those. As the "responsible administrative authorities" aren't the scorer, timer, or on-court game officials, state association could certainly use this rule as a basis for picking up at the start of an extra period, if it so desires.

Bottom line is that the scoreboard is NOT the official score, and your (Camron Rust) statement previously that the scoreboard was somehow the official score is 100 percent wrong...

Then, if the game is over since the officials have left the gym, who won and exactly what did the officials approve? Even if the book ultimately shows something different, the score they approved is what counts.

About three seasons ago, a situation arose in this state which had something to do with the matter under discussion.

Following a contest late in the season and several hours after everyone had departed, the home school AD was tallying up the stats from the scorebook.
Everyone had left the gym thinking that the home team had won the contest by one point. Yet during his calculation, he discovered that the book did not match what had been on the scoreboard. I can't recall exactly how it differed, but both point totals weren't what had been posted and the book definitely had more points for the visiting team!

As the contest had bearing on the playoff seeding, he contacted the state office and reported the matter. He also asked that it award the victory to the visiting team.

I must confess that I can't recall what the final decision of the state office was at this time, but it made an impression on me about the honor of the school AD. I probably still have some emails regarding this situation for which I could search and discern the details.

By rule, the officials approve the official score which is the running points total in the official scorebook. If that score is in fact tied, the officials have committed a major error in approving a tied final score and declaring a game over despite having a tied score.

But they didn't know it was tied. In this case they along with everyone thought the visiting team was winning. It was brought to their attention prior to leaving the visual confines of the court. They found out as they were leaving the gym. It isn't on the officials.

If they haven't left the visual confines of the court, they have yet to approve the score.

It doesn't actually matter what the officials think the score is. What matters is what the score actually is. I should hope no official ever intentionally approves a tied score as a final score. That's outside of the realm of error and into the realm of dereliction of duty.

In the OP, the officials checked with the table both books matched and the scoreboard reflected what the books said. When the horn sounded and ended the game the officials looked at the table and nobody said anything. Once they leave the visual confines of the floor the score was 60-59 visitors. Then it says they were leaving the gym and were told the home book was wrong. There is nothing that can be done at this point. Whose to say it didn't get changed after the game was over?

The OP says the scoreboard was wrong. The home book (assuming there wasn't a designation of some other book as official) cannot be wrong. It's been approved as final. The game ended in error but it's over. Sorry about your luck.

No it doesn't. It says at 30 seconds, both, books and the scoreboard match. Assuming nothing changes in the last 30 seconds, when the horn sounds it still is 60-59 visitors.

Why are we trusting the home coach, left alone with the score book following the game, is giving us accurate information? It just seems fishy.

You're assuming facts not in evidence, namely that the score at 0:30 was 60-59. That was not stated.

First, as an official I do not care who won or who lost. If you do, that's your problem.

Second, the rule book is clear on what the official score is...and it is not the scoreboard.

Every time something like this has happened, it has been kicked up to the respective State Associations who have handled it however they are going to handle it. But, again, to state something that is clearly 100% wrong by rule is beneath any of us here on this board.

Adam,

A good point. But, in our neck of the woods, coaches carry their books from one game to the next. Though never "alone" with these books during the games, there would be no reason for him to not have the book sometime after the game. Your point further illustrates/supports the "jurisdiction ends when you leave the visual confines" mantra.

The coach approached a crew in our association as they were leaving the building minutes after the game (he didn't have the book) and merely asked what was his recourse if the official book was determined to be correct

This happened Tuesday night and we still haven't heard any thing from our state office regarding any inquiry by the host school????

Mulk

Bob,

I verify matches (home book, visiting book, scoreboard) at halftime and some point near the end of a game. If the game is close at the end, I get a thumps up before leaving the visual confines. But I don't actually look at the running scores at all.

Do you think that I should start doing this?

I understand he'd have the book, but there's no reason to allow any coach to challenge like this after he's had access to the book off the court.

No offense intended here, but I believe you have this completely backward. I cannot verify that the score is "what I BELIEVE it to be" without actually seeing the book. And I honestly don't care what the pretty lights on the wall say. Granted, 99% of the time, they are right... but that doesn't really matter.

So what should our take away be from this thread? Go over at the end of a close game and visually verify the score in the book and that the books are the same?

When you "approve the score", you approve that the BOOK has the correct score (and, I guess, for the OP ... that the game is actually over!). If the game is over since the officials have left the gym, then the team with more points in the BOOK (and not the pretty lights or what happens to be in the officials' heads) is what matters. The book, by definition, cannot "show something different" than the score approved because it IS the score that was (or should have been) approved.

Nodding at the scorekeeper or making eye contact is NOT approving the score.

The moral of the story is Don't have close games!!!:D

Yes. Usually there is a time out or 2 at the end of a close game. During on of these timeouts my partner and I both go to the table and verify that the scoreboard reflects what is in the home book. If there is a discrepency between the home and visitor book, we try to get it straight, but ultimately the home book is what is official. When we know that the home book and scoreboard are correct we take a quick glance at the table and make sure they have no problems, then get off the court.

I'm not asking about close to the end of the game, I'm asking about after the game is actually over.

[QUOTE=OKREF;865315]Yes. Usually there is a time out or 2 at the end of a close game. During on of these timeouts my partner and I both go to the table and verify that the scoreboard reflects what is in the home book. If there is a discrepency between the home and visitor book, we try to get it straight, but ultimately the home book is what is official. When we know that the home book and scoreboard are correct we take a quick glance at the table and make sure they have no problems, then get off the court.[/QUOTE]

It was right here.

When you check with the scorer as you leave the floor with the board showing 54-55, you're asking them if they have the same....when they indicate they don't have anything different, that is what you've approved.

Read my post again.

No is the answer. Check right before the end, look at the running score and verify everyone matches. Tell them that they need to let you know if there's an issue.

Wrong again...

The score board has nothing to do with the official score and you know it.

The reason I ask is that it seems this procedure failed this time but maybe a contingency to handle two inept score keepers is not really feasible.

The OP admitted they didn't actually look, they just asked everyone if they matched. My take away is to actually look with my own eyes.

Works for me. Good thread overall, thanks.

You keep going back to the pretty lights.

That is too much work. If their is a problem the teams need to monitor this themselves and if there is an issue make it clear to the officials to find the mistake. Otherwise double checking everything is silly to me. I have had coaches go crazy when they feel a point was not awarded in the middle of the game so if they allow that to take place with the final score, same on them. Because even if you look you do not know there was a mistake made or someone was not deliberately making a mistake. I know of almost no officials that I have worked with that do this or suggest to do this.

Peace

R: OK, you guys match?
VSC: Yes.
HSC: Yes sir. We've both got...
R: OK, see ya next time. Thanks guys. <trots off>
HSC: 59-59, wait, where's he going?
VSC: I don't know. Should we stop him?
HSC: I don't know, maybe he's got to get something before overtime...
VSC: Weird. Hey, where'd you go to get your shirt?

A quick glance at the running score isn't that much work.

Not necessary, nor your job per the rules book.

The scorer and timer need to be trusted to do their duties. If they don't, then the school administration and the state office will sort it out.

I'm not going over and looking at the book before leaving.

Edit: Allow me to be clear--the referee does have a duty to "check and approve" the score at the end of each half. What constitutes this is not clearly defined (perhaps one could contend that leaving the visual confines amounts to this, but that is doubtful even with that text), but I've never heard anyone state that it means physically looking at the book oneself. The NCAA has a protocol which merely involves making eye contact with the scorer and then moving off the court unless the scorer alerts the R to a problem.

+1

Me either. How many people ever actually do this?

No. I'm going by the fact that the scorer has indicated that they have the same thing as the pretty lights. If they later, after the officials leave the floor, determine that they made a mistake, it can't be corrected.

So since "it can't be corrected," what do you wish to now let stand--what the scorer told/indicated to the officials or what was actually written down in the official book by the scorer?

Let me ask this:
At the expiration of time in the 4th quarter the scoreboard shows 59-59.
Prior to the jump ball to begin the extra period, the scorer counts up the points recorded for the 4th quarter in his book. He finds that Team A only has 58 points and that the scoreboard operator must have mistakenly posted an extra point sometime during the final quarter, and alerts the referee.

Team A had possession for the last 38 seconds of the 4th quarter and missed a try for goal at the horn.

Team A coach states that he would not have held the ball for the final 38 seconds of the quarter if he had known that his team was behind by one.

Make your ruling as the R.

That is easy....a correction can be made up to the time the officials leave the court OR the ball becomes live to start OT. Once the ball is live, the OT is played regardless of any correction.

I don't see how that applies to this case. In this case, the scorer made an error in indicating that score was not tied...we don't go over to verify that they are recording/reading the results correctly. The officials left the floor based on the scorer's validation of the final score not being tied. Realizing later that it wasn't tied is no different than realizing they didn't record something properly.

I'd want to say "too bad so sad - fire your damn scorekeeper"

True. So now which do YOU go with--the book or the board?
All true again, and yet now I have presented you with the reverse situation. So again which do YOU go with--what the scorer and board said or what is written in the book?

You're going with an entirely different situation. The point being discussed is jurisdiction and what the official has approved, not what they should go with. If I'm on the court still, I may go with either one after I investigate what the discrepancy is. Either the book or the board could be wrong. If I can't figure out the difference, it will be the book. But, again, that isn't what we're discussing.

When the officials leave the court approving a score, their jurisdiction ends. That much is clear. It doesn't matter if the score they approve is subsequently found to be inaccurate. It doesn't matter which score is official if they declare another score to be the final. In doing so, they have, even if they are wrong in their conclusion, effectively declared one to be correct and the other to be incorrect...which is something the referee has the authority to do. If the state wants to reopen the game and declare that it wasn't actually over they can certainly do so but from the perspective of the officials, the game is over as they approved it.

Just as you play OT once you start it even if the official book said the game was not tied...you don't go back and cancel OT. Likewise, once the officials leave the court, you don't go back and continue the game. Not sure why you're dragging this on. The game is over.

I think we all agree the game is over.

The scenario is this: At the end of the game the scoreboard reads 60-59 and the official scorebook reads 59-59. The scorer has failed, for whatever reason, to make the officials aware of the discrepancy before they leave the visual confines of the court and thereby approving the final score.

Again, we all agree that, barring intervention from the appropriate state authority, the game is over.

As far as I can tell, you maintain the final score is 60-59.

I, NR and others maintain the final score is 59-59.

It appears to me that you think the officials are approving the score on the scoreboard (thus MD's stating you go back to the lights) rather than approving the running score in the official scorebook.

On the overtime...Once you go to overtime you play the overtime, even if an error is found and corrected.

Obviously, Camron and I both know that.

I constructed the scenario such that he had to pick between the numbers posted on the scoreboard or what was in the book BEFORE the extra period started.

I actually think that he made an articulate answer to my question while not selecting one or the other. He said that he would determine which was correct and go with that one since the officials had not left the visual confines. That makes sense to me and I have to give him that one.

I also agree with him that in the OP the game is over. I just disagree with him on which score is the one that has been approved.