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flsh224 Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:03am

What do you have?
 
7th grade boys game

13 seconds left in the game when Team A scores to get within 34-31. Team A has no timeouts left. Player B1 ends up with the ball in the lane after the ball goes through the basket. He looks for someone to give the ball to, he never gets out of bounds, not even close to the line. He passes it to B2, who takes off dribbling like the ball had been put inbound. He is then fouled by Team A.

So my questions are, should a violation have been called on Team B and if so when? Or do they have 5 seconds to properly inbound the ball, no matter what they do with it?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

bob jenkins Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:11am

Violation as soon as you (the official) recognize that the pass to B2 was intended to be a "throw in"

JugglingReferee Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:36am

I've got a count as soon as B1 looks for someone, and a violation as soon as B2 takes off down the court.

Unless I've been briefed ahead of time with this situation, then I'm likely to rule a violation. And then when I am briefed, I would suggest a proper way to burn time from the game in this situation.

flsh224 Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:49am

Well, I guess I kicked it. I started the 5 count as soon as B1 had the ball at his disposal and continued it after he gave it to B2. I was at 4 when B2 was fouled. B2 was dribbling along the end line when fouled. My interpretation was that Team B had 5 seconds to properly inbound the ball and until the 5 seconds were up or I knew they had no chance of properly inbounding it, they hadn't advanced it up the court.

My partner after the game thought I should have called a violation. I have been unable to find it in the rule or case book to back up calling the violation.

bob jenkins Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by flsh224 (Post 862721)
Well, I guess I kicked it. I started the 5 count as soon as B1 had the ball at his disposal and continued it after he gave it to B2. I was at 4 when B2 was fouled. B2 was dribbling along the end line when fouled. My interpretation was that Team B had 5 seconds to properly inbound the ball and until the 5 seconds were up or I knew they had no chance of properly inbounding it, they hadn't advanced it up the court.

My partner after the game thought I should have called a violation. I have been unable to find it in the rule or case book to back up calling the violation.

This play caused quite a long discussion here many years ago. The options were (a) immediate violation; (b) wait 5 seconds; or (c) stop the clock and bring them back to do it right

The NFHS issued an interp (check the Past Interp Archive) saying (a) was the correct response.

JugglingReferee Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:00pm

Team A players do not need to be aware if B is playing legally, and since no legal throw-in has taken place, B's actions only confuse A, which I don't believe is fair to A. A TI violation makes sense.

In the reverse case, when A scores and is losing, and knocks the ball away, we can go straight to the T. In that case, B never had a chance to properly play basketball. In your case, B did have a chance to properly play basketball, so I less inclined to kill the play and let them inbound again with a stopped clock. The only option left is a TI violation or a T. This T would be too much, imho.

grunewar Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 862727)
(c) stop the clock and bring them back to do it right.

This is my younger kids, Rec 11U and below answer. Else, I have a violation.

BillyMac Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:03pm

Warning Warning ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 862728)
In the reverse case, when A scores and is winning, and knocks the ball away, we can go straight to the T.

Before, or after, a delay of game warning.

PG_Ref Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:05pm

Caseplay 9.2.2 SITUATION C:

A1 scores a basket. After the ball goes through the net, B1 grabs it and makes a move toward the end line as though preparing to make a throw-in. However, B1 never legally steps out of bounds, both feet remain inbounds. B1 immediately passes the ball up the court to a fast-breaking teammate, who scores a basket.

RULING: Cancel Team B's goal, throw-in violation on B1. The ball was at B1's disposal after the made basket to make a throw-in. B1 must be out of bounds to make a legal throw-in. (7-4-3; 7-5-7)

Adam Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 862728)
Team A players do not need to be aware if B is playing legally, and since no legal throw-in has taken place, B's actions only confuse A, which I don't believe is fair to A. A TI violation makes sense.

In the reverse case, when A scores and is winning, and knocks the ball away, we can go straight to the T. In that case, B never had a chance to properly play basketball. In your case, B did have a chance to properly play basketball, so I less inclined to kill the play and let them inbound again with a stopped clock. The only option left is a TI violation or a T. This T would be too much, imho.

If A scores and is winning, the case play does not apply. Kill the clock, issue the warning, and move on. A is not benefiting, as the stopped clock negates whatever advantage their player thought he would get.

Adam Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by flsh224 (Post 862721)
Well, I guess I kicked it. I started the 5 count as soon as B1 had the ball at his disposal and continued it after he gave it to B2. I was at 4 when B2 was fouled. B2 was dribbling along the end line when fouled. My interpretation was that Team B had 5 seconds to properly inbound the ball and until the 5 seconds were up or I knew they had no chance of properly inbounding it, they hadn't advanced it up the court.

My partner after the game thought I should have called a violation. I have been unable to find it in the rule or case book to back up calling the violation.

Hmmm. Did you call it an intentional foul for contact with the thrower during a throw-in? :D

JugglingReferee Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 862739)
If A scores and is winning, the case play does not apply. Kill the clock, issue the warning, and move on. A is not benefiting, as the stopped clock negates whatever advantage their player thought he would get.

Fixed. Tx.

SNIPERBBB Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 862732)
Before, or after, a delay of game warning.

No DoG warning needed under 10-3-5a.

Adam Tue Nov 20, 2012 01:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB (Post 862854)
No DoG warning needed under 10-3-5a.

I wouldn't apply 10-3-5a to a situation covered by 10-2-5e, which requires a DOG warning.

SNIPERBBB Tue Nov 20, 2012 08:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 862855)
I wouldn't apply 10-3-5a to a situation covered by 10-2-5e, which requires a DOG warning.

You mean 10-1-5?


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