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-   -   block/charge/no call considerations (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/92681-block-charge-no-call-considerations.html)

PG_Ref Wed Oct 17, 2012 02:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater (Post 858770)
In NFHS, once the ball leaves the shooters hand does that eliminate control (Player and team)?

I'm just wondering as this is the case in FIBA, and the post would then be a call as a common foul on offence for a push. If basket goes it would count.
Once the ball leaves the shooter's hand(s), correct, there is no longer control. If the shooter crshes into the defender before returning to the floor, it is a player control foul on the airborne shooter and no basket. if the shooter lands first, and then crashes into the defender, then it's a charging foul and the basket counts if it goes in.

bob jenkins Wed Oct 17, 2012 02:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater (Post 858770)
In NFHS, once the ball leaves the shooters hand does that eliminate control (Player and team)?
Yes & Yes.

It's still a PC foul, however.

Camron Rust Wed Oct 17, 2012 04:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref (Post 858742)
Just my opinions based on my experiences, many times the lesser experienced officials dont pick up the secondary defender in time (prior to contact) & when the crash happens... they guess. The RA provides us with a formula. In the RA = a block & it also allows the T or C to provide info to "get the play right."
That may be (regarding the lesser experienced officials) but that was no reason to turn a perfectly good change into a block just because some officials got it wrong as a result of not looking in the right spot. It wasn't that adding the RA made us get it right, it changed the balance of offense and defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tref (Post 858742)
I don't see the defense getting robbed of anything. Get there before the shooter alights or get out the way! The people came to see made baskets NOT collisions in the paint.
Sure they are. With the RA they can be there before the shooter alights and they still get called with a block..just because their heels are on the RA arc.

People also come to see good defense and offensive players making good decisions when their path is being cut off. The collisions would have stopped if officials would have just called the rules as they already were....as a charge. Offensive players wouldn't have continued to drive into trouble. The RA penalizes the player making the better play instead of the player who had control of the situation yet forced it anyway.

If a defender occupies any path through which the opponent wishes to go, that should be considered great defense no matter where it is on the court.

Adam Wed Oct 17, 2012 05:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 858792)
That may be (regarding the lesser experienced officials) but that was no reason to turn a perfectly good change into a block just because some officials got it wrong as a result of not looking in the right spot. It wasn't that adding the RA made us get it right, it changed the balance of offense and defense.



Sure they are. With the RA they can be there before the shooter alights and they still get called with a block..just because their heels are on the RA arc.

People also come to see good defense and offensive players making good decisions when their path is being cut off. The collisions would have stopped if officials would have just called the rules as they already were....as a charge. Offensive players wouldn't have continued to drive into trouble. The RA penalizes the player making the better play instead of the player who had control of the situation yet forced it anyway.

If a defender occupies any path through which the opponent wishes to go, that should be considered great defense no matter where it is on the court.
^ This.

APG Wed Oct 17, 2012 08:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 858792)

People also come to see good defense and offensive players making good decisions when their path is being cut off. The collisions would have stopped if officials would have just called the rules as they already were....as a charge. Offensive players wouldn't have continued to drive into trouble. The RA penalizes the player making the better play instead of the player who had control of the situation yet forced it anyway.

If a defender occupies any path through which the opponent wishes to go, that should be considered great defense no matter where it is on the court.
Except most people (fans, coaches, players) don't consider a help defender standing so close to the basket for the sole purpose of just taking a charge as good defense like it or not. They'd rather see a defender attempt to block a shot or go for the steal or have the primary defender move his feet and cut the defender off (the sole time most people deem it acceptable to take a charge near/under the basket). Was the fact that officials weren't calling this a charge/PC by rule an expediting factor in bringing in the RA? Probably...but I think there's been a clear shift in ideology on this type of play, and I for one like it....and so does every single major rule set save for NFHS.

tref Wed Oct 17, 2012 09:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG (Post 858811)
Except most people (fans, coaches, players) don't consider a help defender standing so close to the basket for the sole purpose of just taking a charge as good defense like it or not. They'd rather see a defender attempt to block a shot or go for the steal or have the primary defender move his feet and cut the defender off (the sole time most people deem it acceptable to take a charge near/under the basket). Was the fact that officials weren't calling this a charge/PC by rule an expediting factor in bringing in the RA? Probably...but I think there's been a clear shift in ideology on this type of play, and I for one like it....and so does every single major rule set save for NFHS.
^ That.

Camron Rust Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG (Post 858811)
Except most people (fans, coaches, players) don't consider a help defender standing so close to the basket for the sole purpose of just taking a charge as good defense like it or not. They'd rather see a defender attempt to block a shot or go for the steal or have the primary defender move his feet and cut the defender off (the sole time most people deem it acceptable to take a charge near/under the basket). Was the fact that officials weren't calling this a charge/PC by rule an expediting factor in bringing in the RA? Probably...but I think there's been a clear shift in ideology on this type of play, and I for one like it....and so does every single major rule set save for NFHS.
Only because they're lemmings who've been conditioned by sports center to expect that.

JRutledge Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:24pm
I would not mind an RA, but I think it would not be officiated properly at the HS level. I just do not find HS officials as a whole to take on rules that have come complex to them and apply them especially at the lower levels. Maybe varsity games and more experienced officials would be OK with this, but I think a lot of two person games would have this play officiated horribly. At least that is my feeling here.

Peace

APG Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 858830)
Only because they're lemmings who've been conditioned by sports center to expect that.
That may be the reason for some. But then again, there could be, *GASP*, folks that never thought a help defender running in front of the basket for the sole purpose of getting a charge is a "legit" form of defense. Neither school of thought is right or wrong (for debate purposes...obviously in all but NFHS, it ISN'T good defense (save for exceptions).

It is what it is...the RA is here and isn't going anywhere. A generation from now, they'll look back at the RA and wonder how the game was played before it. :p

I also agree with Rut, that the RA at the high school level is problem a while away...heck we have a hard enough time getting a lot of officials to call it properly in the first place as it is.

BillyMac Thu Oct 18, 2012 06:47am
Block Charge Is Hard Enough Already ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 858832)
I think it would not be officiated properly at the HS level. I think a lot of two person games would have this play officiated horribly.
Although the block charge is not the most difficult call for me (it's traveling), here in "Two Person Connecticut", having to make the block charge call, especially the block charge that just "pops up" unexpectedly, would be extra difficult if I had to look down for some lines on the court. Just being brutally honest, with you guys, and myself.

dsqrddgd909 Thu Oct 18, 2012 07:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrutledge (Post 858832)
i would not mind an ra, but i think it would not be officiated properly at the hs level. I just do not find hs officials as a whole to take on rules that have come complex to them and apply them especially at the lower levels. Maybe varsity games and more experienced officials would be ok with this, but i think a lot of two person games would have this play officiated horribly. At least that is my feeling here.

Peace
+1

Raymond Thu Oct 18, 2012 07:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 858830)
Only because they're lemmings who've been conditioned by sports center to expect that.
Yes, b/c only you and those who agree with you are capable of independent thought. :rolleyes:

bob jenkins Thu Oct 18, 2012 07:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref (Post 858742)
Just my opinions based on my experiences, many times the lesser experienced officials dont pick up the secondary defender in time (prior to contact) & when the crash happens... they guess. The RA provides us with a formula. In the RA = a block & it also allows the T or C to provide info to "get the play right."
The RA only solves that problem when the contact happens inside the RA. And, most of the time the contact is outside, so the problem still exists.

From what I've heard (and, yes, it's somewhat second-hand, I admit), many more calls in near the arc were wrong last year than before the arc in NCAA (M and W). Maybe it's just a learning curve and they'll improve this year. But, as a rule, NCAA officials are "better" than HS officials, and if the NCAA officials have trouble, ....

Raymond Thu Oct 18, 2012 09:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 858858)
...From what I've heard (and, yes, it's somewhat second-hand, I admit), many more calls in near the arc were wrong last year than before the arc in NCAA (M and W). Maybe it's just a learning curve and they'll improve this year. But, as a rule, NCAA officials are "better" than HS officials, and if the NCAA officials have trouble, ....
This is what I heard directly from a D1 supervisor's mouth.

tref Thu Oct 18, 2012 09:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 858858)
From what I've heard (and, yes, it's somewhat second-hand, I admit), many more calls in near the arc were wrong last year than before the arc in NCAA (M and W). Maybe it's just a learning curve and they'll improve this year. But, as a rule, NCAA officials are "better" than HS officials, and if the NCAA officials have trouble, ....
Yes it was a hot-topic in May:
http://ncaambb.arbitersports.com/Gro...%20Arbiter.pdf

Reps = success, I'm sure we'll see an improvement this season.

Better :confused:
I always thought that "next level" officials were just individuals who were afforded & took advantage of an opportunity that some excellent HS officials have not been provided with, for whatever reasons.


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