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tref Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:48am

Questions for the Forum
 
1. Do you consider SDF plays to be in the same category as Block/Charge plays to the basket? Why?

2. Do you have the same whistle tempo (timing) on both type of plays? Why?


Thanks!

JRutledge Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:55am

What is an SDF play?

Peace

bob jenkins Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:04pm

I assume he means "Start, Develop, Finish" and, imo, block/charge is a SDF play, so I don't understand the first question.

JRutledge Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 858622)
I assume he means "Start, Develop, Finish" and, imo, block/charge is a SDF play, so I don't understand the first question.

That is what I thought and I also do not understand the question either.

Peace

tref Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:16pm

Start develop finish plays require a patient whistle, no?

Do you use the same patient whistle for block/charge plays?

JRutledge Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 858626)
Start develop finish plays require a patient whistle, no?

Do you use the same patient whistle for block/charge plays?

I think most plays require a patient whistle when it involves contact.

Peace

rockyroad Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:57pm

I am a little confused here also...so what "plays" do you NOT officiate as Start-Develop-Finish plays???

bob jenkins Tue Oct 16, 2012 01:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 858626)
Start develop finish plays require a patient whistle, no?

Do you use the same patient whistle for block/charge plays?

Yes.

Why would you not?

I think "all" plays are SDF.

I think "all" plays require a patient whistle.

So, while it's logically true that SCF plays require a patient whistle, phrasing it like that just seems confusing to me.

Camron Rust Tue Oct 16, 2012 01:42pm

I think that what the tref is trying to ask is about the difference between plays where the defender is tracking the dribbler/shooter through the play, which is certainly an SDF play, vs. intersecting with the dribbler/shooter with a collision. The latter really doesn't have three separate phases. It all happens at once. Boom. Nothing to see develop or finish.

tref Tue Oct 16, 2012 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 858649)
I think that what the tref is trying to ask is about the difference between plays where the defender is tracking the dribbler/shooter through the play, which is certainly an SDF play, vs. intersecting with the dribbler/shooter with a collision. The latter really doesn't have three separate phases. It all happens at once. Boom. Nothing to see develop or finish.

Yes Camron, I believe that a patient whistle is the best practice on SDF plays to the basket.

But on a bang-bang block/charge play at L (when you're the only official with a call) is it best to make a quick, strong decision (when you're certain the defender did/didnt obtain LGP)? Or do you practice the patient whistle there too?

JRutledge Tue Oct 16, 2012 03:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 858649)
I think that what the tref is trying to ask is about the difference between plays where the defender is tracking the dribbler/shooter through the play, which is certainly an SDF play, vs. intersecting with the dribbler/shooter with a collision. The latter really doesn't have three separate phases. It all happens at once. Boom. Nothing to see develop or finish.

Start, develop and finish does not always involve contact the entire way. The start might be the initial move and then the middle is the start of the first contact. Usually there is a close defender or someone closing before any contact. If you are refereeing the defense, you can anticipate some contact, but wait to call a foul if necessary.

Peace

bob jenkins Tue Oct 16, 2012 03:33pm

The play (usually) happens more quickly (that is, there's less time between start and finish), but the concept is still valid.

RookieDude Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 858649)
I think that what the tref is trying to ask is about the difference between plays where the defender is tracking the dribbler/shooter through the play, which is certainly an SDF play, vs. intersecting with the dribbler/shooter with a collision. The latter really doesn't have three separate phases. It all happens at once. Boom. Nothing to see develop or finish.

BINGO! ...and this is a BIG pre-game disucussion. (3-Whistle) Who is going to take the big block/charge in the key? The T/C that started with the player going to the hoop? The L that has the "play" right in front of him, and probably had the secondary defender get in a position to "take the charge"?

We usually go old school around these parts...if it's coming at you as L...you get first shot at the call...while the T/C may come up with a fist...they are patient with the signal. (DO NOT WANT A BLARGE)

When I am Lead I usually don't have a "patient whistle" as discussed in the OP concerning a block/charge. I see the play, I come out with a big "BOOM", a signal and away we go.;)

BillyMac Wed Oct 17, 2012 06:40am

Please Don't Say It Three Times Or He'll Come Back ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 858692)
We usually go old school around these parts...if it's coming at you as L, you get first shot at the call, while the T/C may come up with a fist, they are patient with the signal. (DO NOT WANT A BLARGE)

That's the way we handle it here in my little corner of the Provisions State. And it certainly is old school because we've been doing it this way for over thirty years. I'm not saying that it's the right way, or the best way, it's just the way we do it around here.

Smitty Wed Oct 17, 2012 07:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 858692)
When I am Lead I usually don't have a "patient whistle" as discussed in the OP concerning a block/charge. I see the play, I come out with a big "BOOM", a signal and away we go.;)

You don't actually yell "BOOM", do you?

bob jenkins Wed Oct 17, 2012 07:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 858692)
BINGO! ...and this is a BIG pre-game disucussion. (3-Whistle) Who is going to take the big block/charge in the key? The T/C that started with the player going to the hoop? The L that has the "play" right in front of him, and probably had the secondary defender get in a position to "take the charge"?

We usually go old school around these parts...if it's coming at you as L...you get first shot at the call...while the T/C may come up with a fist...they are patient with the signal. (DO NOT WANT A BLARGE)

When I am Lead I usually don't have a "patient whistle" as discussed in the OP concerning a block/charge. I see the play, I come out with a big "BOOM", a signal and away we go.;)

IMO, L should have a patient whistle and, more importantly, a patient call / signal on this play.

It's more difficult to do (for whatever reason) as L than as T/C. So, just because T/C hold is no reason for L to jump in early (or "get the first shot at the call").

BillyMac Wed Oct 17, 2012 08:27am

Viral ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 858696)
You don't actually yell "BOOM", do you?

Actually, he yells "Boom goes the dynamite".

tref Wed Oct 17, 2012 08:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 858692)
When I am Lead I usually don't have a "patient whistle" as discussed in the OP concerning a block/charge. I see the play, I come out with a big "BOOM", a signal and away we go.;)

Ahhh 300+ views later & I finally get an answer to "the question."
Thanks!!
Patient whistle is your practice on SDF plays to the basket, but you make a strong, immediate decision on B/C plays as the L. Same here, I dont think those two plays are in the same category.

The reason for the question was because I had a conversation with an official about me allowing the defender to fall to the ground before blowing my whistle. Keep in mind this was a transition outlet from the division line to the FT line extended (no dribble) basket attack. My partners had not crossed the division line yet.

My thoughts were, I refereed the defense & never had him obtaining LGP prior to the contact... so what am I waiting for???

I guess its all about who one is learning from. In the womens game I know the L allows the T/C first crack, but the principle is opposite in the mens game.

Jay R Wed Oct 17, 2012 09:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 858696)
You don't actually yell "BOOM", do you?

I only say boom when I call a T:)

Jay R Wed Oct 17, 2012 09:10am

A colleague of mine often says patient whistle on the ball and quick whistle off the ball. I'm not sure I agree but I've heard it.

RookieDude Wed Oct 17, 2012 09:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty (Post 858696)
You don't actually yell "BOOM", do you?

...hey, I'm from the Pacific Northwest...(Legion of "BOOM"!)

...and to answer your question, Yes on many B/C calls and many Ts, I give an emphatic "Boom"... with no apologies. Sorry, if you don't like it...;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 858698)

It's more difficult to do (for whatever reason) as L.

...Exactly! At this point in my career I don't need "difficult". If we were doing a game we would pre-game this and decide, between our crew, how to handle it. I would suggest, to you, that I am "weak" (OK, maybe stubborn) in holding my call as L on the Block/Charge and to watch out for me. ;)

Smitty Thu Oct 18, 2012 07:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 858821)
...hey, I'm from the Pacific Northwest...(Legion of "BOOM"!)

I worked in the Pacific Northwest for several years - never heard anyone say "Boom".

Quote:

Originally Posted by RookieDude (Post 858821)
...and to answer your question, Yes on many B/C calls and many Ts, I give an emphatic "Boom"... with no apologies. Sorry, if you don't like it...;)

Nice contradiction. I don't like it, but I also don't expect you to care.

tref Thu Oct 18, 2012 09:50am

Although I'd like to see how the "BOOM" thing goes, I think we have to express our individual personalities on the court, within reason of course.
We dont want to be replaced by the bots, keep the human element alive!


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