"They can't do that!"
 

I'm looking for a parallel here.

If you saw the end of the Giants/Bucs NFL game yesterday, you saw the Giants in a "victory formation," but the Bucs opted to pound the line and go for the ball. The Giants were pretty upset about that, even though it's completely within the rules, it's something you "just don't do," according to Coach Coughlin.

(Personally, I think Coughlin needs to review Herm Edwards' famous line.)

Does anyone have an experience along this line where a coach thought the opposing team was doing something wrong, yet it was well within the rules, and possibly innovative?

Personally, I think Tampa's play was bush league and, as much as I dislike Coughlin, I think he was exactly right.

Yates HSBB - Houston, Texas
 

Remember that hs team a few years ago, that was runnung up the score and the 2nd and 3rd units were pressing they were winning games 152 - 46 and not thinking anything of it....is this the kind of stuff you are talking about ????

Does any one have a statistic on the number of fumbled center to QB exchanges last year?

Maybe coughlin does not remember Joe Piscarcik.

When you are within one score, why wouldn't you make them play?

A different angle: perhaps another formation - it seems a punt formation would solve the issue.

I Actually Watched That Game Live On Televsion ...
 

When I was in college (small NAIA powerhouse), one of our captains (a senior guard) had his leg broken on a play like this. I'm on Coughlin's side. This isn't innovative.

Black and White TV ??????
 

BM - As old as you and the game are did you watch it in blk and white...:):):)

Not really. More along the lines of a single play the coach complains is illegal, but rather it's just something legal that he would never do.

So you basically think that Tampa should have just quit? Why even put their defense out on the field then? As a football coach, I coach my players to play hard every down. When we take a knee, our linemen still fire off the ball, and our backs are ready to pick someone up coming off the end, and my QB takes a knee and then pops up and backs out of there...no reason to expect a defense to just stand there and do nothing.

Had a game a few years back where a player only needed 10 or 12 more points to break the school season scoring record. The visiting team obviously knew this, and they played a box-1 and triangle-2 defense the entire game to keep the kid from getting the ball. He ended up scoring a couple on free throws...home coach b!tched about it the entire game. Nothing we could do about it.

Winning team shooting with the shot clock off when the opponent has conceded the game. Not illegal but considered bad sportsmanship.

I also agree with Tom that what Tamba did bush league and far from the accepted practice...at least in the NFL.

The Ink Is Black, The Page Is White (Three Dog Night) ...
 

Yes, and not because it was broadcast in black and white, because the newly married BillyMac's couldn't afford one of those new fangled, expensive, color televisions on a teacher's salary.

Three Dog Night !!!!!!!!
 

Most of the young whipper snappers on here have no idea as to the following....."Jeremiah was a bullfrog...was a good friend of mine"

When I see a fumble one of these this will be a first for me personally. The Miracle in the Meadowlands was a play being run in full and fumbled, not the practice for kneeling down. Totally different situations. I agree with the Giants coach.

Peace

And if they did, some would not care. ;)

Peace

The Giants and their coach are wrong. The game was within one score. As long as their is time on the clock, the Bucs have every right to try to win the game...that is why they play it. One botched snap and the game changes.

If the score difference was 9 or more (two scores), I'd agree with the Giants and the Bucs would have probably conceded, but it wasn't.

Kind of different, but not totally. Remember that the play before this was a typical kneel. The defense played it like a real play, so NYG got pissed off and ran a regular handoff - and we all know what happened there.

It was obvious watching the game that the defense was coming. The O Line not defending was frankly stupid. Would anyone be calling this Bush if Eli was so surprised he did end up fumbling?

I recently heard a great approach to a blow out. It was a football game.

Team B was winning handily and showed no signs of letting down. The coach at half-time went to the Team A coach and gave him a copy of the 2nd-half plays he'd be running. B then told A that he was putting his 2nd stringers in, along with players in "new" positions, but they would not play down - they were going to play hard and learn how to play football.

I say you play to win the game, and to develop players, especially at the pro level. With the money they're making, too bad about their feelings.

The above solution by the A coach was brilliant.

The kneel down as we know it did not start to take place until after that game. Basically the QB snapped the ball and would fall down. That is very different than what has happen thousands of times since at all levels. What they did was legal, but it was unnecessary. If the other team has the ball and they are in that formation, the game is basically over.

Peace

Then why play the last 30 seconds (or whatever was left)? Why not just stop the game right there? Like I asked before - why even have Tampa's defense on the field?

Like APG said as it relates to basketball, do we end the game with 20 seconds left when teams clearly have given up? No, so why do it in this case? Isn't the same thing happening? Could we not make the same case in basketball games? After all this does not happen in just 20 point blowouts, I have seen it when 5 or 10 points and a lot can happen in 20 seconds right?

Peace

Legal, but Disadvantaged Coach Puts Up a Fuss
 

Scorekeeper erroneously records five fouls on star visiting guard instead of four. Due to offset score table, the head coach's box for visiting team is about 6" from the end of the table, so the visiting coach was right there next to the R when he was trying to straighten out the whole mess with the scorer. Not really getting involved, just right there. The home coach, meanwhile, was putting up a huge fuss that we allowed the opposing coach to be right there at the table while he had to stay in his box way down there pret'neer in a different zip code.
Legal, but protested.
Turned out okay, and, to me anyway, it's just desserts for a coach whose school gets those stupid bleachers that require the scorer's table not to be located at midcourt.

My whistle is about as quick as it can get on a victory formation play. If the center-to-QB snap is clean, I blow it dead as soon as the knee starts for the ground.

I couldn't care less how anyone "coaches" this.

I see...so basically you cheat and kill a play before it is over.

Nice.

Nope, the QB is giving himself up and he has possession of the football. That's good enough for me. If he fumbles the snap, obviously it's a different story.

Local practice is that we are told the QB is taking a knee and we pinch in a bit and protect against anything stupid. We tell the defense that the offense is taking a knee, don't do anything stupid.

I've never seen anything even at the HS level like what the Bucs tried yesterday.

Why is it that coaches immediately go to calling officials "cheaters" and impugn our integrity. You'd think an official would know better than to do that.

Agreed. Actually rather said that Rocky is an official.

Again we do a lot of things where philosophy applies to any rule and that does not change across other sports.

Peace

Uhmmmm, I think you just made my point for me.

Because you said that you would kill a play before it is over - as soon as the QB's knee STARTS toward the ground. You going to do that for everyone?

For every QB that informs me he's going to take a knee, absolutely.

Seemed clear to me that Rocky was making a rhetorical point, not accusing Rich of cheating.

NFL's WWWF-like integrity
 

I find Coughlin's comments troubling, but in keeping with the shady interpretation of ethics we see in the NFL.

After all, this is a league that thinks nothing about letting a team roll over in Week 16 if they have a playoff spot clinched, even though that game may be important to another team looking to make the playoffs. It happens every year and reflects a lack of respect for the game. Worse, it has become recognized as a smart move by coaches by a world in which winning with integrity doesn't matter.

Coughlin had his team ill-prepared for the game-ending play. The TB coach used that strategy previously in his coaching career. Coughlin should have expected he would use it as a professional since it is within the rules and happened during a one possession game.

For the record, this is correct...Rich, I do not think you are a cheater. Of course not...however, just because it's the last play does not mean we should expect the defense to just stand there and do nothing. And for you - or anyone on a forum like this - to dismiss someone's opinion about that just because they are a coach (the "I don't care how you coach it" comment) is just as insulting to that coach as being called a cheater is to an official. Had both - know what I am talking about.

Then what point is that? I know for a fact when I watch many games in basketball, basketball officials often do not get so technical about a travel or other insignificant violations when the game is ending. I do not read Rocky or others going on rants about someone "cheating" when it happens on every nationally televised game when the outcome is very certain. The outcome in a football game where someone is running the "V" formation is rather certain. Everyone tends to let up or to relax. It is good sportsmanship or it would not be done. So what point is he making? Again every sport has a way to end the game with some sportsmanship when the outcome is very clear. I think that is the way things should be done, now if others disagree that is fine. But would I be accusing someone of cheating by doing this in basketball or using common sense and ended the game by not calling a slight moving of a pivot foot as seconds are literally running off the clock?

Peace

In a game where the margin is 3 points or less (one scoring trip), then yes you had better be on it. If Tampa had been down by 24 points, this would be a different discussion.

Basketball is not a good analogy. In basketball it's the team getting beat that decides when it's time to hang it up. If the losing team gives up (i.e. stops pressing or fouling), then there's no reason for the winning team to do anything to disrupt that. In football, the team that is losing may not have decided it's give up time. I see nothing wrong with trying to win the game - that's their jobs. Unwritten rule or not.

Just IMO and take it for what it's worth, but I don't see how this could be read as anything other than implying Rich is a cheater. He's a big boy and can see fit how to handle this if he feels it needs to.

Again, there's a reason the Giants were as incensed after this tactic and a fight nearly broke out. It's simply not done in the NFL as protocol and as an "unwritten rule." If you watched any other games this Sunday, in an apparent V-formation/kneel down situation, the accepted practice was followed.

We are not asking them to give up, but not be silly. And not many fumbled snaps are caused by blowing up the left tackle.

Peace

At worst, he's implying Rich cuts corners, probably similar to calling a foul on a quick touch when the losing team tries to foul (with opposite results) or ignoring the little violations when a game is no longer in doubt.

More likely, (confirmed by rocky himself), it's a rhetorical point. Knowing rocky, I thought it was clearly the latter.

But he came up with a nefarious reason. We do the same as you illustrated all the time and wish I would have used that example earlier.

Peace

I'll say this... There was more than one game this past weekend where there was a kneel down play when the game was decided by 8 or less points (one possession game). NONE of the other games had defenses that acted in this manner.

Bottom line, it was a cheap shot by the defense. The Giants have a right to be angry.

It was hyperbole.

If anything, the practice Rich noted hurts the offense, in that he eliminates the chance for a fake.

Baltimore Ravens vs. Philadelphia Eagles...one point game with even more time left (1:04). And they (rightfully) didn't decide to try and pull these shenanigans.

For the record, it is illegal to fake this play. ;)

Peace

NCAA rules, it is. No specific coverage in NFHS rules.

I know of more than one white hat that would flag it as UNS after being told the QB is taking a knee, though.

It was considered a deception play to act like you are going to run a kneel down and then try to run a play and we threw a flag. And that is the interpretation from our state as well. We had this happen a couple of years ago and were backed by our higher ups.

Peace

And in the NFL, one couldn't fake a knee either as a player simulating taking a knee is considered down.

I did hear a WH mention this after telling the defense that the offense was going to take a knee.

For All You Young Whippersnappers Out There In Forum Land ...
 

This has nothing to do with the Victory Formation -- other than it could be the reason why teams *use* the victory formation, though.

Pisarcik went on to be Ron Jaworski's backup in Philadelphia, too.

I don't know what I enjoyed more from that video -- the fumble itself, or the good ol' 70s credit crawl.

I'm also enjoying the fact that I used the Giants/Bucs game as an example for a basketball parallel on a basketball board, and what's the more interesting subject here? The NFL.

I guess I got away without "OT."

Just this once. ;)

I think it's difficult to find a basketball equivalent...winning team shooting a shot with the shot clock off with the defense conceding a loss is the closest thing I could think of. Or perhaps a winning team continuing to full court press when the game is no longer in doubt. Besides that, I've got nothing.

I can't really think of any basketball equivalents that are as dangerous.

When we know a team is trying to foul, we call fouls that we have not called all game. It is not exactly the same, but is an awareness of the situation and adjusting to the end of the game situation.

Peace

I am a high school official and all this does is make my job more difficult on Friday night becasue some coach thinks this is okay. It is not...sportsmanship is already at a all time low...this will not help.

That's the Ravens choice. TB didn't do anything illegal and they didn't try to hurt anybody. They broke a supposed un-written rule by trying to create a turnover during the Victory formation. A lot less dangerous than Golden Tate's illegal peel-back block on Shawn Lee but we have plenty of ex-players and coaches who think that was a great hit and should be legal.

So basically Schiano did something that those same people, in this case, don't like so now he is wrong or a dirty coach.

Supposed ????

I really wasn't looking for dangerous. It was more about things a coach got furious about that were well within the rules. It could be dangerous, but doesn't have to be.

And yes, I'm struggling to think of an example, too.

That's not just the Ravens' choice...that's what 31 other teams in the NFL do. There's nothing supposed about this unwritten rule. In literally every game this year where the V-formation/kneel down was used at the end of the game, everyone in attendance knew what to do. It's the understood protocol understood by players and coaches. There's a reason that a first year coach straight from college tried this stunt rather than a coach who's been established in the NFL.

And it is done at every and high school games as well. So this is not just an NFL thing or an NFL position. If this happen in a high school game you might have a fight. If you do this in a college game, you might have a fight. This is not unique or special to the NFL and everyone seems to fall in line.

Peace

And in most cases, the score is out of reach.

Just because the leading team thinks the losing team should concede doesn't mean they have to. I think it is arrogant to expect the trailing team to surrender at the discretion of the leading team. It should be up to the trailing team to concede by not lining up on the line and then the leading team can take the knee without risk.

I'm curious to see what happens the next time the Buccaneers have the ball and the lead late. If this was baseball, I know what would happen... but what's the football equivalent of a fastball in the ribs?

Oh there are a whole bunch of them, and they don't necessarily need to wait until TB has the ball and the lead late. "Accidentally" smoking a guy who signaled a fair catch. "Playing to the echo of the whistle" by hitting someone late or out of bounds to name a couple. I know these are both violations of actual written rules. But in my opinion violating the unwritten rule of the kneel down like TB did won't be cause for much consideration at "payback time." I'm not advocating these happening, BTW, just saying TB shouldn't be surprised if/when karma comes their way. Schiano and his supporters apparently see this as "hustle" and trying to win the game. Coughlin and his supporters see it as dirty and violating an unwritten rule. Maybe they're both right.

Perhaps the most cogent thing written so far in this thread. I'm not normally an advocate of the middle (sometimes the truth, or best answer, is on the far extreme of an argument) for its own sake, but this may be one case where the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Yes, the players in the league play to win, and playing to the final snap is important and expected. Every sport, however, has its unwritten rules (basketball seems to have fewer), and this seems to be one of them.

Sure, the Bucs should have an opportunity to win, but they did, and they found themselves down, and out of timeouts, at the last snap. Apparently, the convention is to acknowledge defeat at that point.

There's nothing dirty about going against convention, but there are often times consequences for doing so. This happens more in baseball than the other sports, but the other sports have it, too.

I'm confused .....DUH !!!!!!
 

Is the former post from Adam the Moderator or his alias Snackwells just a regular poster ?????????

Snaq Diesel has retired.

Snaqwells Has Left The Building ...
 

My spell check will certainly miss Inkwells.