POI or AP?
 

NF rules. Double personal foul called on A1 and B1 at the same time. Do you go to POI or AP? Thanks.

For all double fouls, you always go to the POI. It just happens that sometimes, the AP is the POI.

POI. If there's no team control, AP.

The following case play best describes POI of Double fouls as well as location of administrating the Throw-in.

4.19.8 SITUATION E: A1 has control of the ball in Team A's frontcourt. Post
players A5 and B5 are pushing each other in an attempt to gain a more advantageous position on the block while (a) A1 is dribbling the ball; (b) the ball is in the air on a pass from A1 to A2; or (c) the ball is in the air on an unsuccessful try for goal by A1. An official calls a double personal foul on A5 and B5. RULING: In (a) and (b), Team A had control of the ball when the double foul occurred, and thus play will be resumed at the point of interruption. Team A will have a designated spot throw-in nearest the location where the ball was located when the double foul occurred. In (c), no team has control while a try for goal is in flight, and since the try was unsuccessful, there is no obvious point of interruption. Play will be resumed with an alternating possession throw-in nearest the location where the ball was located when the double foul occurred. Had the try been successful, the point of interruption would have been a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. (4-36; 6-4-3g; 7-5-3b)

Correction, if there's no team control, and no goal, infraction, or end of period/half is involved.

Right, but he's talking double personal fouls here. If a goal is involved, the double personal foul typically happened during the shot -- no team control. Your point on end of period is well taken: tweet, double foul, horn. I'm struggling to think of a scenario where a double foul would precede a violation.

Player jockeying for rebounding position...double foul while a try is in flight. Try goes in. You had a double foul with no team control, and according to your statement, we'd go to the AP, but there's a goal involved, therefore you wouldn't use the AP and the opposing team would have an unrestricted throw-in on the endline.

The problem with your statement is you'll have officials that would at times, erroneously give the ball back to the team that just made a basket or force a change of the AP when it's not warranted, if they followed the rule you didn't fully qualify.

True, but if the try was successful then the POI is endline running for the non-scoring team. No arrow necessary on successful trys when a DF occurs.

Yup, I'm awake now. Thanks.

Also, if there's a double personal during a throw-in. No team control, but you don't go to the arrow.

As may be clear by now, Hugh, you go to the POI. However, you haven't given us enough information to determine what the POI is in this case. It may be an AP throw-in, or it could be simply a throw-in to the team that had control.

Took you til 1 o'clock on this one to wake up ???????

Actually there is team control. ;) But your point still remains.

FT, DF on the jockeying, followed by the FT missing the iron.

Ball in flight, double foul, offensive basket interference?

HA-HA!! I knew somebody would jump on that!! And actually -- I think we'll have to see the rule changes for this year.

My understanding is that they changed the definition of "team control foul" and deleted ALL the changes they made last year regarding control. So I think (I haven't seen the rulebook yet) that there is, once again, no player control or team control during a throw-in.

I knew I could bait somebody into that one :D

Or, B1 commits a shooting foul. While the ball is in the air, B2 and A2 commit a double foul.

Yup, started work five hours earlier than normal this morning. Sleep schedule a bit hazy.

Well...assuming NFHS doesn't change any language as it relates to double foul enforcement, we'd still handle the play the same, even if they did away with player/team control during a throw-in.

True, but it would be one more of many examples of situations when there is no TC but you would not go AP on a DF. And those who insist on AP in all such situations will have one more chance to be wrong.

Why do you assume they are mutually exclusive?

This is right in the rule book. If whoever is having this discussion doesn't believe what's in the rule book I don't see why they would believe some dudes on the internet.

Correct. But I purposely added the part about no team control, just to see who would bite :)

I think this is the best way to interpret it...

Yup, we only go to the AP when POI cannot be determined & POI simply means, where would the ball be if we didnt blow our whistle.

Is there really? Didn't the NFHS rewrite the rules this to not actually say there was team control and all that entails but to only say that a foul during a throwin would be considered a team control foul? :);)

Uh, Camron, see post #16 :)

Yup, I went back and saw what NFHS released.

4-19-7: A team-control foul is a common foul committed by a team that has team control (including a member of the throw-in team from the start of the throw-in until player control is obtained inbounds).
Rationale: The committee adopted a team-control rule change for last season which introduced some complications for a number of other rules. These complications were handled through interpretations last year. The addition of this parenthetical statement allows all rules affected by the team control definition change last season to revert to their previous verbiage and brings the rule in line with the interpretations that were released last year.

I'll just say, I'll believe it when I actually see it in the rule book. I don't trust NFHS with some of their editoral changes. ;)

We can absolutely agree on that. But I'm hopeful.

Me too. Frankly, the committee screwed the proverbial pooch last year. Assuming everyone would get the memo was, in my experience, a stretch worthy of the Armstrong name.

I was responding to post #13. I read threads linearly and posted a reply to that post before I ever got to your post. Sometimes, when the reply might not be short, I scan the rest of the thread to see if there is a similar comment but if it is short, I don't waste my time.

They did also say they were reverting all of the affected rules back to the form of the previous year and putting the change solely in the definition of a team control foul. So, if they do what they said they would do, you only have to reference the 2010-11 book to know what we're getting for 2012-13.