When FC/BC status begins
 

A-1 makes a bad cross-court pass that's easily stolen by B-2, who steals it with one hand and immediately starts a dribble.

Here's the crux: When B-2 starts this her dribble, she has a foot in the air, one in the FC (about 10 inches from the division line), and her dribble hits the division line. When did status begin, when she immediately touched the ball (resulting in a violation), or when the dribble is established (no violation)?

Ask yourself when team control was established and you'll have your answer...

Was she ever holding the ball prior to the dribble?

Two entirely different things.

The status of the ball changes upon a mere touch by a player or when contact is made with the court. So in your scenario the ball had frontcourt status from the view of Team B the moment that B2 touched it and the ball then had backcourt status, again with regard to Team B, the moment that it bounced on the division line.

However, you are concerned with player and team CONTROL, which is a necessary element for there to be a backcourt violation. Player control means holding or dribbling the ball and when there is player control there is team control, so unless B2 had player control and thus there was Team control for B in the frontcourt prior to the ball striking the division line, the play was legal. If you judged that B2 caught the ball with one hand and/or started the dribble in the frontcourt, then you would need to whistle for a violation.

Excellent explaination of the situation. Nevada you are now doomed for the rest of your career because of my praise. :p

MTD, Sr.

I agree, but let me ask this.

For those who claim a dribble starts once the ball is released, wouldn't this need to be called a violation regardless?

She never caught the ball (to answer Snaq's question). She merely took an errant floating pass and started dribbling it right away. I would say she had control of it immediately upon the touch.

Here's where I'm conflicted, though. We all know that, when a player is dribbling, that ball has backcourt status when the either foot or the ball is in the backcourt. This player was dribbling right away. How do you know where the status is until you let the ball hit the floor?

This discussion is ridiculous. I doubt you need to worry about a call in a situation as described in this thread. I know I am not going to sweat this type of minutiae at any level game I happen to be officiating at the time. Seriously, stolen ball at the division line, one foot in FC, one foot in the air, and you are really going to be concerned where the persons first dribble hits...not a chance, good steal and play on! Now if you just want to debate exactly when a player in this situation gains control for purely theoretical purposes than by all means carry on.

I think most would agree with your sentiments on the whole, but the part in red is what makes this forum a great place to learn and really think about rules and rules applications so that when we're in a game situation and something unusual happens, we may have something spark in our brains from something we read here. I get what you're saying to a point, but the discussion is hardly ridiculous. And if you aren't interested in the theoretical discussions maybe you can post some obnoxious pictures or unfunny jokes. ;)

Since the dribble started immediately, I think that one can apply the "three points" principle and say that the ball does not have front court status until both feet and the ball are in the front court.

3 points doesn't apply to the initial position here because the dribbler moves from front to back court.

I disagree, this play isn't that uncommon. 99.9% of the time, you won't have a call on it, because we give the benefit of the doubt normally to the defender making a play here.

Now, if that new dribbler gets the ball down in the FC before anything touches the BC, then I would have a violation (with possible exceptions I haven't considered.)

Player never held the ball. There was no release.

You are still mixing two definitions and this is confusing you. A player cannot have player control with merely a touch. The rule requires holding the ball or dribbling. So you must decide if the player held the ball in one hand or began a dribble while having frontcourt status.
A dribble may be started by batting the ball.

snaq, you make my point exactly, 99.9% of time this is a no call. of course there are going to be exceptions such as the one you pointed out, but that is not the situation described. as described this play is 100% of the time a play on, there is no point in this situation to try to determine if the first batting of the ball to start initial dribble constituted control or not. nobody in their right mind would call this a bc violation, nor would any sane coach or assignment guy expect such a call to be made.

without question, rules knowledge is absolutely essential to officiate basketball, but so is knowing how and when to apply those rules. i dont think it would help one's career to nitpick things as described in this thread.

I think this play is also useful to discuss the whole question of when a dribble begins. We've had a lengthy discussion on whether an illegal dribble violation should be called when a player (having already used his dribble) pushes the ball toward the floor but it's intercepted by a defender before it returns to his hand.

Those who claim this is a violation (and not a play-on) should call the OP a BC violation, as PC starts immediately once the player's dribble has begun. If his first push (or bat) is the start of his dribble, then it happens while he has FC status, meaning the dribble hitting the division line is a BC violation.

definitions
 

As Nevadaref said, "a player cannot have player control by merely touching (batting, slapping or tapping) a pass." CB 4.15 COMMENT seems to cover this play. Since it was mentioned the ball was never caught then the pass must have been batted or allowed to rebound off the hand which does not constitute player control, therefore no violation.

Agreed. In this case the initial bat does not define a dribble until it strikes the floor and subsequently remains in control of the player making the steal.

I see this as totally different than the player who has ended a dribble, then pushes the ball toward the floor, intending to start another, even if it strikes something else instead.

I'm not sure how it's different, but it's possible I'm missing something. The rule is the same whether starting the dribble with a push or a bat. Further, a player dribbling a live ball is in player control.

If anything, it seems to me the OP is even more likely a violation than the second dribble scenario. One could argue that the second dribble isn't judged a dribble until the offensive player hits it again; but one cannot argue that player control starts at any point after the dribble begins. So, even if you don't judge it a dribble until it hits the floor and returns to the dribbler; it seems pretty clear that once the dribble does, player control will have started at the bat.

4.15 comment: "A player is not dribbling.......when he/she bats.......a pass away from other players......"

Isn't this exactly what happens in the OP?

Not necessarily. Think of the whether you'd consider the first bounce a dribble if she proceeded to pick it up after one bounce. If not, then you're right. If yes, then PC starts on the bat.

Let me add a little twist
 

Team A has the ball. Team B bats the ball loose. The ball is being pin-balled. B1 bats the ball in the similar manner from the original post. The ball hits the ground and B1 gets fouled.
If Team B is in the bonus, does B1 shoot free throws?
Same question. When does Team/Player control start?
I had that play occur in my game last year. I immediately asked the Official that blew the whistle if B1 had control? His response was, "She got fouled, we are shooting free throws." I don't think he had a clue why I asked him the question. Also, he never wanted to discuss the play after the game ended.

I don't think PC was established in either situation.

I'm just saying
 

9-9-3?

Nobody had both feet off the floor in the discussion at hand.

Often a single bat followed by a catch does not equal a dribble even when it was a pass from a teammate. I don't think I've ever seen a single bat on a steal which I considered control.

Often, but not always. And I have seen plenty of initial bats that are clearly the start of a dribble, some even the start of team control.

No Fooling Around Here ...
 

Some? If it's the start of a dribble, then it must be both player control, and team control.

4-12-1: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

4-12-2-A: A team is in control of the ball: When a player of the team is in control.

My point was they all start player control, but some start team control with a bat (defensive play, or an initial dribble off of a throw in pass.

We have a player establishing player and team control with a dribble with one foot in the FC, one foot in the air, and the ball in the BC (first bounce on the division line). So I see this as team control being established with the ball not having FC status, due (in the spirit of if not in the fact of) the three points rule.

I see it the same. While you might be 99% sure of intent, you can't know it. It may appear to be the beginning of an illegal dribble, but it isn't one until it actually becomes a dribble. For all you know he may push the ball to the floor and then get out of the way of it - making it not a dribble.

Change the scenario ever so subtly.
B1 is standing, and with one foot in the FC and the other in the air bats a pass from A1 to the floor and proceeds to dribble twice before putting the other foot in the bc. Violation. 3 points does not apply. Letter or spirit.

Clarification of ball location
 

When A-1 made the errant cross-court pass, which was intercepted by a bat by B-2, was A-1 in her frontcourt - (B's backcourt) or was she in A's backcourt - (B's frontcourt) ?

It seems that the originating location of the ball could be significant, regarding a ruling of whether the interception by B-2 constituted a backcourt violation.

Why would it matter?

Makes no difference. The discussion centers on what point the ball is caused to go from FC to BC by B2. The status of the ball prior to that is immaterial.