Carry, or No Call?
 

A1 dribbling, commits a clear carry as she tries to go around B1.

As I blow the whistle, B1 slaps the ball before it hits the ground following the ball coming to rest in A1's hand.

The ball has come to rest, and A1 has brought her hand around top again and begun pushing it to the floor. I thought my whistle was quick, but wanted to bring the play here for the good of the cause.

Interesting. But if you break it down, it is really just the oft ask question..."when does a dribble become a dribble?"

Fundamentally, the carry is really either an illegal dribble or a travel. For several years, that was all we had as a carry was not defined in the rule book. Either the player ended the dribble by catching the ball and started another dribble or has moved the feet while holding the ball.

So, would you have called a travel with any variation on this play, probably not.

That leaves illegal dribble. Did they start a new dribble after ending the first? Does releasing the ball constitute the start of a dribble? I think it does. Thus, I think they started a new dribble and violated.

It is just that sometimes, when it is ambiguous, we wait to see what happens next to declare it a dribble. In this case, I think it is fine to have called the violation. The fact that he dribble was intercepted by the defense doesn't make it something other than dribble.

From Your Friendly Neighborhood Mythbusters ...
 

Palming or carrying is when the ball comes to rest in the player's hand, and the player either travels with the ball, or dribbles a second time. There is no restriction as to how high a player may bounce the ball, provided the ball does not come to rest in a player’s hand. Steps taken during a dribble are not traveling, including several that are sometimes taken when a high dribble takes place. It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.

????

Where was the myth in my post?

I think you may be making more of this than needs to be.

Maybe, but Camron's response is interesting, in that I was firmly in the "it's not a dribble until it hits his hand again" camp. Yet this particular play seemed obvious to me.

Besides, it's summer.

To me it's just a summer lesson in not being too quick with your whistle. If it were a camp and B1 ended up with ball you would be getting a speech from an observor about the benefits of a patient whistle.

I'm confused
 

I'm picturing A1 "about" to committ a carry as their hand is underneath the ball and they are "about" to continue their dribble, but B1 deflects the ball before the dribble hits the ground.

Is this correct?

No, her hand went under the ball, but had come back around to the top and she'd start the push downward when B1 clipped it.

To-ma-to / To-mah-to
 

If a player is "about" to gain an advantage by carrying the ball, but its stolen prior to the violation, who does our whistle put at a disadvantage?

Once Upon A Time ...
 

No myth, just highlighting Camron Rust's statement, "Fundamentally, the carry is really either an illegal dribble or a travel."

Good question, but the ball wasn't stolen. She was continuing her dribble and would have gone around the defender. The ball was deflected only slightly, and the defender was leaning the wrong way.

Lean Back
 

Sounds like a nasty position to be in, officiating-wise.
Thank God "I'm not a good womens official" keeps me off of those games for the most part.

Seems to me this is a no-call. It's only a travel if the player takes too many steps while the ball is in the hand. It's only an illegal dribble when it comes back up into their hand - which it did not, directly.

The fact that B did not complete the steal of the ball is immaterial - I'd have no call in either case.

The touch by the opponent is not relevant to the dribble unless it causes a loss of control. Did it? Even it it did, if the touch occurs after the release, which is the start of the second dribble, it is still a violation.

Agree.

So...the ball had left the dribbler's hand? If that's the case the violation took place before the ball was touched by the defender.

No, the ball had not left. She had begun the downward thrust, but the ball was still in contact with the hand.

It was still in contact with the hand while the touch by the defender occurred, then released, then you had a whistle?

So, in your judgment, the touch had no effect on the release, correct?

In that case, I think you may have jumped the gun a bit.

I don't think it is a dribble until it is released (if not even later). Why? The pivot foot restrictions as they relate to the dribble are relative to the release of the ball to "start" a dribble.

What if she had, somehow, caught the ball before it was clear from the hand (perhaps scooping it back to her self to catch it)? Ignoring the carry rule, would you have called that an illegal dribble? Doesn't that more resemble an awkward looking but fully legal way to end the dribble.

A player can even toss the ball into the air and catch it and as long as they don't move, that isn't a dribble (illegal or legal) and it isn't a travel.

Okay, that's why I asked the question.

To follow CR's point, there wasn't anything until the ball came out of her hand again. At best it could have been a travel since - I'm assuming - her feet were still moving in whatever direction she was going and she might have taken a couple of steps after the ball came to rest in her hand. With the ball still in contact with her hand it couldn't have been an illegal dribble.

It happened more quickly than that, and I'll add that B1's touch didn't affect the ball in any material way. My whistle may have been early, but I don't think it was incorrect. Unless you think B1's touch gives A1 another dribble.

Imagine if A1 had actually picked up her dribble and as she started a new, illegal, dribble, B1 clips the ball while it is still touching her hand but on its downward thrust. No affect on the ball's movement.

Ah Ha, The Plot Thickens ...
 

How does an official know that the action described above is not the start of a legal bounce pass to a teammate?

How does an official know anything? You see the play and you make a judgment. Most of the time, a pass and the start of a dribble look nothing alike.

Start Me Up ...
 

(My parenthesis above)

Aren't the start of both exactly the same, by definition? They certainly have a different ending, but I'm only talking about the start of both.

What A Jerk ...
 

Hey BillyMac. This is, by far, the stupidest post, ever, in the history of Al Gore's internet. One important difference is that a player can legally lift the pivot foot at the start of a bounce pass, but cannot legally lift the pivot foot to start a dribble.

+1

Actually, it did come back to her hand, directly. 1. B1's contact did not alter the ball, and it happened while the ball was in A1's hand. This sort of contact would not grant a player a new dribble, so why should it absolve her of the carry?

My whistle was, perhaps, early, but I don't think it was incorrect.

I agree.

+2
If the player catches dribble by putting hand under ball (i.e. carries) and then pushes ball out of hand to floor there is no violation unless player touches ball after release. Who is to say player wasn't going to pass ball??
So I have no call.

As jar mentioned earlier:

The rulebook definition of a dribble & when it begins doesnt support your ruling on this play either. 4-15 Art 1 & 3 in particular.


That's what we all say! The CC as well as the easy out here should've a defensive foul for reaching :D

The touch by B doesn't give A a new dribble unless A lost control of the ball as part of it. A no call is not an option.

A second touch is not necessary to constitute a dribble. Read the definition:

......a player pushes the ball to the floor, once or several times......

See the play, judge the action, then make the call if necessary.