Discussing a call with your partner
 

I saw this discussed briefly the other day, and just wanted some other thoughts on the subject.

I'm lead (and in a small gym with only a couple of feet between end line and wall). Shot goes up, rebounders go up, the ball pinballs very quickly off three or four arms and hands and goes out of bounds, whistling past my head, forcing me to duck. I make the call. "White ball." I am pretty sure I got it right, but there were a lot of things going on, including trying to protect my movie-star good looks.

My partner comes up and quietly says he is sure it went off white. I ask him, "100 percent?" and he says Yes. Good enough for me. I signal red ball, partner explains it to the white coach that he had a great angle, and game goes on no problem.

I didn't have a problem with my partner stepping in, although other officials have said my partner was out of line. What do you think?

This is a critical pre-game conversation topic. When I am the R, my conversation goes something like: "If you are 100% sure an OOB call is wrong, approach your partner and give him the info. Then, allow him to decide what to do with it". When I am the R, I encourage my partners get it right, as opposed to worrying about how it looks. In other words, change your call.

To me, it's a lot easier explaining to a coach that a partner had the better look and saw it definitively than living with a bad call for the sake of ego or appearance. I think your partner and you did the right thing.

My guess is that the other officials that said your partner was out of line are the ones that worry more about how they look than getting it right. I've worked with those guys in the past and at this point in my career, I try to avoid them. That attitude is generally insecurity on their part.

I wouldn't say he was out-of-line. But personally I don't give help on bang-bang plays in front of my partner. For me it has to be something he clearly could not have seen or that he clearly missed. But that's just me.

My group goes with the 100% rule. If you come to me, you are absolutely certain.

Around here, your partner executed the pregame perfectly. Coming in, offering what he/she saw on the play and allowing you to change the call. Out of line would be coming in blowing whistle, pointing the other way, loudly proclaiming who the ball went off of, etc. Basically over-ruling your call without the discussion.

I ALWAYS pregame this with my partner. If s/he approaches me I know right away that they are certain about their information and I can't think of a time I didn't use it.

I think most coaches appreciate seeing officials working together to make the correct call.

From My Pregame ...
 

For out-of-bounds help, let's get it right. If I have no idea and I look to you for help, just give a directional signal.
No need to come to me, just point. If you don't know, give me a jump ball signal. If I signal but I get it wrong then
blow the whistle and come to me. Tell me what you saw and let me decide if I’m going to change it.

Billy, I like all of that except blowing the whistle. If not absolutely necessary, I would leave that part off, but that is just me.

I like the straight forward approach:
Only come to me if you are 100% sure and it is something I obviously missed
Give clear information - "The ball went off white"
I will change it.

Not nearly enough information to make this sort of judgment, IMO.


Agreed.

I like an even more straight forward approach - only come to me, and I will only come to you, when help is asked for.

So Rocky, are you saying if you see your partner clearly get an OOB call wrong, (ie: clear tip off of red with no other touch and partner says and indicates red ball), you are not going to him/her unless he/she asks for help? If not, why?

Yep.

My partner is right there and I am across/down the court. He/she has a better look at the play than I do...if everyone starts yelling and jumping around, my partner will ask me for help and I will give them any information I have. If everyone starts jumping around and yelling and my partner is confident that he/she got the call right, they won't ask for help and my response will be "hmmm - he/she saw something I didn't".

Out of curiousity, when you lead the pregame how do you discuss "helping partners" on OOB calls?

What do you do when working with a guy like myself, who doesnt believe in that practice & is all about getting the play right?

Who said Rocky wasn't about getting the call right? He's about trusting that your partner will know if there's a chance he got it wrong.

Instead of trusting your partner to approach you if he sees something, you're trusting your partner to ask you if he thinks he may have missed it.

Either approach works if done by people who truly want to get the plays right, so I don't understand the subtle animosity towards those who approach it differently.

I believe this would cover it in my pre-games:

Regardless of how I do it, if you feel you need to help me on a play I'm going to accept your info and rule accordingly. But I'm not coming in on bang-bangs in front of you unless you ask for help.

I disagree, rockys approach is if they dont ask, I will not tell even if he has definitive info.
In my experiences, those who follow that mindset love to bring it up in the lockerroom, after the game when there is nothing you can do about it.

Others believe that they should provide the info & allow the calling official to decide what to do with the info.

When the boss asks about the questionable OOB call with 4 seconds left in a tied ballgame, I would like to be seen on film offering info as opposed to saying, "he didnt ask for help."
Because "he didnt ask for help" will lead to "did you see it?"
Thats just me...

I believe Rocky's mindset is that on a bang-bang play (that's what we are talking about, not a clear tip that occurs outside the vision or PCA of the calling official) in front of one official that there is just as much a chance the long-distance official may have missed something.

Again, both systems only work when everyone involved wants to get it right. If I'm lead, and there's a play where I need help, I'll ask. Too many times, though, the T sees blue tip the ball and thinks it's white ball. What he misses, though, is that white hit it after. If T comes in on me there, I'm not changing.

I promise you, I'll ask if there's any chance I missed it. I will also, however, assume my partner is as conscientious as I am.

Obviously, things change if my partner is green or week, but all the rules go out in that case anyway.

Great! That is the calling officials option, at least the info was provided.
I know "some guys" that would never ask for help as they think their credibility would be lost :confused:
IMO, sticking with an IC & not even asking for help is worse.

Everybody wants to get plays right when we're talking in the lockerroom. Get out on the floor & people get sensitive.

I let my partner(s) know in the pre-game to expect at least one "help" solicitation from me. I have no qualms at all asking for help.

I get what you're saying. While I agree it's frustrating to work with a sensitive partner, if he's that sensitive, approaching him isn't going to make a difference.

Personally, I think both approaches have merit. Both will work when everyone wants to get the plays right, and neither will work if any of the officials are overly territorial.

+1

First of all, I will put my record of "getting calls right" and the level of games I have worked up against yours any day...so don't try to go there.

Secondly, in pregame(whether I am leading it or not) I will tell my partners that if they want my help, ask for it, and I will give it. If they don't ask, there's no reason for me to give help. And I tell them that if I want their help, I will ask for it. If I don't ask, I don't need their help.

So if I am working with you, and I call an oob and you come running down to me making a big show of helping me out, I will simply say "thank you", change the call to what you wanted it to be, and then do my best to never work with you again. And no, I will not bring it up in the locker room.

If I am working with you and I make an oob call and people start going nuts, I will think "hmmm, did I miss something here?" and then I will yell "Partner, you got something for me?". And then I will change my call or not based on the info you give me.

If I am working with you and you make an oob call and I have info you might want, I will hold my spot and stand there and smile at you stupidly. If you shake your head at me, away I go...if you want my information, you will ask me "Partner, you got something for me?"

Nice and simple...

As a general rule this should always be a pre-game item. But during the summer or off-season ball that is not always possible.

What you describe sounds pretty basic stuff unless your partner signaled without consultation. But it is typical for a partner on a close out of bounds call where they see the entire play to come to the calling official and give them information. As long as he gave you information and you changed the call based on that information, not sure what is the problem.

Peace

Like whoa, there's that sensitivity I was talking about!!

First of all, my "getting the play right" comment was in regards to having info & not providing it. Holding my spot & smiling at you stupidly is STUPID & doesnt do the game any justice whatsoever IMO.

If I'm the coach who the IC went against & I see you standing there smiling, I want to know what you think is so funny! I'll probably get whacked, but I will show the play to your supervisor & see what he thinks about it & you smiling while not helping your partner.

We'll have to agree to disagree about your thought process on help & no I dont want to battle you. There are too many potholes in my game, my CC % couldn't be in your ballpark. Im not that good...


Perhaps rockyroad was his partner :-)

Maybe I am missing the background of this little tift, but it is typical to do this on out of bounds calls. This is not done on other calls. And it sounds like your issue is the facial expressions of your partners and not what they really saw or what they could help with.

Peace

There's No "Crowd" In Team ...
 

If I screw the pooch on an out of bounds call, and my partner has any information that can help us to get the call right, I want him to offer unsolicited help, and not just if the crowd moans. We're a team, and the crowd isn't part of our team. They don't know the secret handshake.

Not talking about the crowd...could care less about the crowd. If the players on the court start going "HEY! He touched that!" I will simply ask my partner for help. If I don't ask my partner, they don't need to come running in there to fix something that's not broke.

And to tref - it's not "sensitivity" to respond to a direct attack like you threw out. It's normal human behavior. You can think the things I do are stupid all you want...but there is no reason to think that you are the knight on a white horse who is going to rescue the crew on every "bad" (and that's your opinion anyway) oob call. Why not trust your partner on these plays?

I prefer a hybrid...there are times I'll ask my partner for help after making an OOB call, if the players and coach are fussing more than usual. But also, I want my partner to feel free to come to me with additional information if he thinks I absolutely blew a call.

This pretty much where I sit as well, but I'm not married to it enough to justify insulting those who choose differently. And I'd have no problem adjusting to an R who chose one way or the other (such as working with either Rocky or tref).

I do not rely on players at all. I ask for help if I need it, like when the ball flies by from the Trail's position to the the end line as the Lead. You should ask for help because you do not always see where or how the ball got to your area. But if I see the play and see the last little tips of the ball, I will rule accordingly. Players often yell and scream even when it is obvious you got the call right or that you called what actually took place. Unlike the NBA we do not have an opportunity to look at the replay.

Peace

I'm not going to confirm his call (are you 100% sure?). If I ask him for the call, or he steps in and takes the call from me, then I'm going with what he has.

But from that point on, he owns that call. So if a coach questions me about it, I'm telling the coach, "You need to talk to him about it; not me." Particularly if he steps in to correct my call and I saw it clearly. I'm not going to argue with him about it; he needs to deal with the consequences.

That's why I rarely step in to correct a partner's call, unless it's very evident to me and virtually everyone in that building. And that's generally an OOB play that had no chance of being touched by anyone but the team he gave the ball to.

To me, there's a difference between a regular disputing of a call, and the OMG, HOW DID HE GET THAT WRONG type of response. The former, I won't ask for help if I've already made an OOB call...the later, I'm going to be definitely thinking about it.

I like this practice also, but give your partner a chance to establish the call and make a decision then if you still have definitive information, offer it unsolicited.

And thats all I was really saying.

Too obvious to discuss? is there such a thing?
 

Im calling a 3 man spring league game. one of my partners is...getting up in age. hes easily 65 and it shows. hes almost never in position he is slow to signal and the fans and coaches are starting to get aggravated. we were shooting free throws. and Im the C. the second shot goes up and misses. me the T and everyone else in the gym sees it go out out on red. the L(everyones favorite official)calls it red ball. Im not defending anything I did or saying its something I normaly do, but everyone in the Gym knew it was white ball including my other partner. TOOT a little NBA hand slap and point in whites direction. did I botch this, should I have walked over and discussed it with him, is there a hybrid. anything to help me get beetter would by appreciated. no matter how you feel about it iff you have something in the officials manual that would be appreciated too.


PS alot of you guys call the pro league the NBE? what exactly does that stand for lol.

In your case, I would have gone to the L and told him straight up, it went off of red and should be white's ball. Give him specifics if you think it'll help (Hey bob, red 34 hit the ball with his right hand and was the last to touch it).

NBE=National Basketball Entertainment...it's some people's way of saying that pro basketball isn't basketball but rather entertainment (as in officials never call travels on stars, stars get all the calls, and a multitude of other silly stuff). Stupid I think, but to each their own.

Let me ask you a question, do you like your partners overruling your calls on the court? Ok, since you don't like it, why did you on this play? While working with someone that is almost never in position and has bad mechanics is a challenge, it doesn't give you the right to go tooting and changing calls. Around here, if you are not asked for help, but you have info, quickly walk to the calling official, let him/her know what you have and let them toot and change the call. If you are asked for help, then by all means toot and make the call.

However, if you really want to do it right, check with the local people that are working the level that you aspire or better yet, the person assigning those games (if applicable). They'll teach you the correct way to handle this situation and then include it in every one of your pre-game discussions.

The rules state no official can "overrule" another. That's what you did. Go talk to him, tell him what you saw, and let him live or die with the result.
He may be older and slower, but I'll bet he's forgotten more about officiating than you can imagine.

Educated Guess ???
 

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

I offered a partner unsolicited help exactly once this last season. It was a 3-man game, I was the Center and a shot had gone up, missed, and got deflected OOB on the endline but on my side of the court. The Lead pointed one direction but I could tell he wasn't extremely confident, and I knew he got it wrong and so did everyone else in the gym. I went to him, asked how sure he was. He said "Not all that sure", and I told him I was positive that the other team touched it last. He changed it and we went on.

I'm with everyone else though. Pregame this and make sure you're on the same page.

The other problem with how you handled is that the coaches will expect you to automatically overrule that official's calls if they're 50-50. Not a good situation for any of you.

My Twin, Separated At Birth ...
 

Which is exactly the way we handle this here in my little corner of the Constitution State. Except the part about the three person game. Regarding three man games, we're Neanderthals here in Connecticut.