NF 4-44-5 Traveling
 

During a scramble for a loose ball, A1 gets possession of the ball, while on both knees. With no defensive pressure, A1 moves one leg from from having the knee on the floor to a foot. There is no apparent "...attempt to get up or stand." -- NF 4-44-5 b. A1 then passes the ball to a A2 and play continues.
Coach B protests that the knee to foot movement is traveling.
Is there any written statement that changing the position of one leg from knee contact with the floor to foot contact, constitutes an "attempt to get up or stand" and thus a traveling violation?

Judgment call

Traveling. Going from a knee to a foot IS part of an attempt to get up. You could break the "get up" in to many small pieces and they'd still be part of getting up.

The only movement allowed in an "updward" manner is sitting up if they are on their back.

I agree with most things you say Camron, but I'm not sure I agree with this one. I think an "attempt to get up" is open to interpretation. Is just the lifting if one knee enough to be traveling? Is it the foot being placed down that's traveling? Which part changes things to "attempting to get up"? This rule is so ambiguous (similar to "rolling over"), that it will continue to be ruled differently by many people because the parameters are so vaguely written.

Gotta agree with Mr. Rust. Why else would the player go from the knee to the foot unless they are making an effort to stand up? Sounds like a travel to me.

I'm not sure I disagree, I'm just not sure I agree either. I think it might be similar to using a pivot foot. Not trying to get up, but getting the balance needed to make the pass. I don't know - I just think the wording in the rules makes it too vague to say with absolute certainty.

Perhaps the player has a scar on their knee or an injury to their knee.

I generally allow them to get up before blowing instead of making interpretations about what the player was trying to accomplish.

I think you are just not being honest with yourself. Everybody knows what "getting up" means. ;)

Well I do know that the older I get, the tougher it is... :p

If I was not in a public place, I would have yelled out with laughter.

Peace

+1

Any call we can make via a discernable act, rather than via judgment, makes thing more objective than subjective, and is better for everyone involved.

Whatever all that means. But making a call needs to be backed up by a particular rule infraction, and without clearly written rules, you will continue to have official's interpretations vary.

Favorite Color Is Gray ???
 

Have you always been this way? Doesn't your butt get sore with all this fence sitting?

+1

Thats the reason why I would wait & see if a knee to foot is an truly an attempt to get up or just an attempt to get off that sore knee. I believe there is a difference. Afterall, whenever I attempt to get up, I always wind up in a standing position on my feet.

IMO, being patient on violations & giving ourselves a chance to replay it in our minds before blowing is the best practice.

In the OP he passed the ball immediately after going knee to foot. Too bad we cant see the play.

I just know as I move up the ladder calling those 50/50, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, violations does not serve me well. If you have to get into a debate about the intricacies of such a call then let it go. If he is obviously getting up, then go get it.

Bingo! Too many times WE make the "gotcha" call & then have to rewind it several times (if we even do filmwork) to justify the call. Patience...

+1, Yep or any other agreement I can think of.

Peace

Too many times we avoid making close/tough calls because we're afraid of catching heat over them.

Most times it is spitting hairs about whether a player did something or not and I'm fine with staying out of those.....such as a travel call when the dribble release and foot movement were really close in time.

In this case, a clear change of position is hard to dispute. From two knees to a foot and a knee is hard to dispute. You can say it isn't part of getting up but if it isn't, why is the player doing it...it gives them a more advantageous stance from which to make a play.

Do you wait for a shooter to release a shot (or even make a shot) before you consider it a shot? An attempt doesn't have to be successful to be an attempt?

If he wants to lift the knee slightly, that will get him off a sore knee...but he doesn't need to get to a foot to accomplish that.

Do you let players travel who have a sore ankle?

Pivoting gives a player a more advantageous position as well. That's legal. I just have a hard time saying without a doubt that moving from two knees to one is an attempt to get up, unless their next move is to get up. The rule isn't clear enough. Maybe your interpretation is clear to you. But it isn't to me. And others - which kind of makes it disputable. That's a problem in the rule.

This one is certainly more ambiguous than faking a foul, I'll grant you that.

My opinion comes from the fact that it is a violation to contact the ground with any part of the body other than a hand or foot while holding the ball. I see that breaking contact with the ground of the same situation as the attempt to get up....aside from the permitted act of sitting up.

He doesn't have to get up to travel.

He has to ATTEMPT to get up.

He didn't need to go from his knee to foot to make a pass. Going from knee to foot is is an attempt, whether he actually gets up or not.

That's the NFHS interpretation, not anyone that posts here.


It amazes me some of the things that are debated here sometimes.

Their and them indicates more than one player. You want his/her and him/her.

Just trying to help as we haven't heard much from Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy recently.

Where's that written?

ikr

Addendum
 

In the OP, I was about to make the traveling call, and then realized that the intent of the player was not to "get up or stand". The coach wouldn't let it go, and because we have a good relationship, I told him I'd look for some official interp. But, as evidenced by the entries on this thread, so far, there's no reference that would define the issue.
I really don't care which way an official interp may go. I find it curious that we haven't been able to quote a recognized source - NFHS, IAABO, etc, other than the practiced, well respected opinions of our colleagues, which do carry some weight and value.
As stated by several posters, the ambiguity may be the real point.

That's because the rules makers feel that officials should have enough sense to know that this is a violation. ( they're right ;) )

If they had to document every potentital scenario in the book, then they'd be still printing the First Edition.

If a player is on his knees and then shifts his position, placing a foot on the floor, this is a normal progression of events toward standing, even if it was not the player's intent to do so. This is a violation every time.

Yeahbut...what if he lifts his leg, but doesn't put his foot on the floor? He just sort of waves his foot in the air, thus faking that he is attempting to stand. Do we call the travel violation, or do we T him, or do we simply freeze with indecision because we - although we are averagely intelligent - cannot figure out what the hell the kid is doing? :p

Agree ...
 

... and every time in my games, also.

Hmmm....how would you call this play....

A1 has the ball while on both knees. A1 lifts his left knee and returns it to the floor.

What is your call? Does it matter if the lift is 2" or 10"?

A1 then lifts his right knee and returns it to the floor.

Do you have a call now? If not, What if A1 repeats the above actions 2 times, 3 times, 10 times?

Still not traveling? How many times can A1 lift a knee and put it back down on the floor? How far can A1 move using such a technique?

If the traveling rule only regulates foot movement, and not knee movement, is this a legal tactic?

Or, does it make sense to consider the lifting and returning to the floor of a foot/knee while the player is on the floor as if the knee/foot were a pivot foot?

Get's 'Em Every Time ...
 

It's the old pivot knee trick.

(With apologies to Maxwell Smart, Secret Agent 86.)

+!

Travel, travel, travel every time.