Jeff Van Gundy on "Flopping"

[berserkBBK]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I agree on the illegal screen...the defender did embellish the amount of contact, but it still rose to the level of illegal contact IMO. Just because a player embellishes the amount of contact doesn't necessarily make the contact not illegal.

What levels of play would you like to see your rule suggestion for?

The contact was small but I don't see that as a flop. I think flops are when there is zero contact or the player goes in a different direction the contact should take him. The judgement plays are where the player is stationary and takes a little contact like they were run over by a truck. When a player is on one leg or in a non stationary position it is easily possible to be knocked over with a little contact.
Either way... Illegal screen. Good call. Van Gundy is a minority, at least I think, in this issue.

[canuckrefguy]

Flop. You can see after the initial contact there's a tiny pause and then the defender throws himself backwards.

Also an offensive foul.

Maybe they need the NHL rule, where a player can be called for a hook/slash/hold/etc. but a player that embellishes can also simultaneously be called for "diving".

[Toren]

I worked a game, I'm going to guess 6th grade boys. I had never seen a game like this, one team had kids that were jacking around the whole game, throwing behind the back passes, off the glass, crazy jumpers, they were having fun with the game and I had no problem with how they were playing. We'll call this team B.

Team A was playing serious, they were obviously outgunned though and lost by a fair amount.

My point is, on one play, Team A player drives to the basket and comes about 5 feet from contact on a player B, who just throws himself to the ground as if there had been contact.

I must admit I did not call a T. And after the game I wish I would have. That one play kind of stuck out in my mind after the game. I didn't react because it was so unexpected.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Toren

I worked a game, I'm going to guess 6th grade boys. I had never seen a game like this, one team had kids that were jacking around the whole game, throwing behind the back passes, off the glass, crazy jumpers, they were having fun with the game and I had no problem with how they were playing. We'll call this team B.

Team A was playing serious, they were obviously outgunned though and lost by a fair amount.

My point is, on one play, Team A player drives to the basket and comes about 5 feet from contact on a player B, who just throws himself to the ground as if there had been contact.

I must admit I did not call a T. And after the game I wish I would have. That one play kind of stuck out in my mind after the game. I didn't react because it was so unexpected.

The one time I called this, it was about this level, and I had already warned the kid and his coach. After the warning, he flew backwards when the dribbler got to about 5-6 feet away; complete with Monica Seles grunt.

I would have warned him in your game, or talked to his coach. If he only did it once, though, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[rockyroad]

I have a hard time taking anything Van Gundy says seriously - usually turn the channel if he is announcing a game. All because of the Heat/Knicks "fight" years ago when he was holding on to Alonzo Mourning's leg and getting drug around like a little grandchild. So his opinions are really worthless in terms of rules and officiating, imo.

As far as the call - I liked it. It was an illegal screen attempting to keep the defender away from the shooter. Was the contact severe enough to cause the defender to go to the floor? Don't think so...but that doesn't mean it's a bad call.

[JWP]

Van Gundy, I believe, is right regarding flopping, but wrong on this particular example.

I am seeing way too many youth and junior high coaches teaching "the flop" as part of their defensive philosophy. They are encouraged and rewarded for acting, rather than fundamental basketball. Like others, I am reluctant to toss a T for this, going for the no call. However, next year, I think I will just make the minimal contact flop an automatic blocking call.

I would love to see penalizing the flop be a point of emphasis next year.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JWP

Van Gundy, I believe, is right regarding flopping, but wrong on this particular example.

I am seeing way too many youth and junior high coaches teaching "the flop" as part of their defensive philosophy. They are encouraged and rewarded for acting, rather than fundamental basketball. Like others, I am reluctant to toss a T for this, going for the no call. However, next year, I think I will just make the minimal contact flop an automatic blocking call.

I would love to see penalizing the flop be a point of emphasis next year.

I cannot speak for what they are doing at the JH or youth level, but when they get to HS, that stuff often goes uncalled. I think the guys in the NBA are much more talented to get away with it if it is taking place. Even this play it is possible the defender embellished, but he was pushed. But then again it does not take much to push down a guy that is off balance either, which is why JVG really needs to shut up on this particular play. I would understand if the situation was so obvious that hardly any contact took place, but this was not the play.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JWP

I think I will just make the minimal contact flop an automatic blocking call.
.

Wow.

Really???

Regardless of LGP? Regardless of who initiated the contact? Just gonna go with a block as an automatic call if you deem there was minimal contact?

Good luck. Let us know how that goes for you.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by JWP

Van Gundy, I believe, is right regarding flopping, but wrong on this particular example.

...

I would love to see penalizing the flop be a point of emphasis next year.

Van Gundy is one of my least favorite commentators, for a number of reasons, but I have to say I completely agree with him here.

The reason why flopping has grown is simple. It continues to go unpunished. I find the blocking call on a flop to be a cop-out, and it does not directly with the issue -- that flopping is unsportsmanlike. It was indeed a POE about seven years ago in NFHS, thought I can't speak to whether it has actually helped curb it.

That said, I'm not above talking with a flopper first and whacking later, if needed. It is indeed a hard thing to positively see, and you shouldn't whack anyone unless you're positive.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

The Heat/Knicks "fight" years ago when he was holding on to Alonzo Mourning's leg and getting drug around like a little grandchild.

[jump stop]

The problem with the way I see it for flops and charges alike is: if you don't fall to the ground or demonstrate that you were shoved or hit hard by acting out, you probably won't get the call.
If you take on an opposing player like a linebacker takes on an oncoming blocker by holding your ground you probably will get the foul called on yourself. Or if you take the charge by backing up a step or two instead of falling to the ground , there is a better chance of a no call.
So I don't see how you can change the flops or acting of players, just like in this instance. There is no way the player from NY could knock over the Miami player so easily with one arm. But if he would have stood his ground, there would not have been a call.

[APG]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Maybe they need the NHL rule, where a player can be called for a hook/slash/hold/etc. but a player that embellishes can also simultaneously be called for "diving".

I think if any play would ever fit your scenario, it would be this one.

I do think there's a foul here...it's obvious the defender puts the forearm in the Evan's chest and pushes in retaliation for the hard, blind (legal) screen. But Reggie Evans does his best European soccer player impression on this play and is rightfully getting blasted in the media for it. One of the rare times, in an NBA game, where you'll see a flagrant foul penalty two get downgraded all the way to just a run-of-the-mill personal foul.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

One of the rare times, in an NBA game, where you'll see a flagrant foul penalty two get downgraded all the way to just a run-of-the-mill personal foul.

This is the play he should have been going nuts over.

This play reminded me of the game I saw in South Africa where Kaka from Brazil was Red Carded for a wonderful acting job by a player from the Ivory Coast. It looked like bad acting live, but when I saw it on replay back at the hotel, it was just as funny as this play.

Peace

[APG]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is the play he should have been going nuts over.

This play reminded me of the game I saw in South Africa where Kaka from Brazil was Red Carded for a wonderful acting job by a player from the Ivory Coast. It looked like bad acting live, but when I saw it on replay back at the hotel, it was just as funny as this play.

Peace

And even on this type of play, I'm okay with the personal foul on this call. That type of play can lead to escalation if not dealt with right away. But if the league wanted to treat this like they do technical fouls (in that points accumulate as does the amount of the fine...all leading to suspension at a threshold), then this would be the poster child for the type of play they should penalize.

On a side note, during the FIFA World Cup, I think they should review all yellow cards as those can lead to missed games. I also wouldn't mind if they assessed yellow cards after the fact, for diving...just like a technical foul or flagrant foul can be assessed after the fact in the NBA for the total number of points/total number needed for suspension.

[JRutledge]

And I would have no problem with such retroactive penalties in the NBA like the NFL does. It is after all a league and they can review every video to penalize such actions. As I said before it would have been much more appropriate to go crazy over this kind of play that started this thread.

Peace