Celtics play
 

APG, can you get the block charge from today's game at 6:58 in the 2nd?

Then please see if you can get Labron's drive to the basket with 5:18 left in the 3rd. It looked to me like he traveled (even under NBE rules) twice, once at the beginning of the drive and then again after he gathered the ball. The Celtics were complaining, too. Thanks.

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Eeek.

I've got a PC and two travels, even by NBE standards.

I see a PC and an easy travel call that my rec league middle school "officials" would spot 99% of the time.

There were some other questionable calls as well, I think in the 4th quarter Pierce took a what should have been a charge from Lebron that went as a no call. I can't recall the others.

That travel is just horrible, even by NBA standards...

PC, but I'm not 100% sure on the travel at the end of Lebron's drive. Remember that the NBA changed their traveling rule to allow 2 steps after establishing a pivot foot. That means (I think) that you can establish a pivot foot, step with the other foot (thus lifting the pivot) and then step again (placing the pivot back on the floor) and this is legal.

And I think that's what Lebron did at the end of that drive. It's hard to see exactly when he gathers the ball, but I think he only steps twice after gathering.

Lets complete that thought...
Wreck league middle school officials also spot travels that didnt occur.

That being said, looks like a tough ICC on the first play. How many times do we see defenders taking block/charge plays in the b/c??

And I dont see a travel off the pass, but after the gather he does take 3.



The day ANY of us has a perfect game we should retire. Leave on a "high note" like George Costanza.

Since the right foot was last to touch, and therefore would be the step to possibly rule as a travel, the question becomes is the left on the ground when he gathered the ball.

I think it is. In fact, I think he has two hands on the ball when the left is still touching the floor.

The only was that there is no travel at the beginning of LeBron's possession, is if the NBE dribble step allotment is identical to the shot allotment.

Wasn't he fouled? If he is fouled before he travels and it looks like that based on that would be the only contact that would negate any travel. They did not show the angle from the official's point of view so I am wondering how much of a foul it was, but it appears a foul was called in real time on the right arm while LeBron is in the act of shooting. It may have actually been a travel first, but it appears the call was about a foul as a result. What would have been a better question is should the basket could on a foul where the player "travels" after being fouled?

Peace

Yes, travel did not occur until after the hit on the arm. I tend to believe that if you did/do not call the travel why negate the foul called. Thus, count the basket.

If a player in the act of shooting gets fouled and then travels before releasing the shot then you should wipe the basket and award 2 free-throws.

I'll agree with most on the travel, but disagree with most on the PC.

BNR,

I understand that. I knew you would come along to make sure I knew it..:D

I was not saying negate the foul, just asking if we should count the basket or not on this kind of play if the foul takes place? Then after the foul technically travels, do we count the basket? Or do we give 2 shots instead if the ball goes in anyway?

But it appears you got the gist of what I was saying.

Peace

JRut,

I did get the gist. The point you brought up was valid too. Do we count or not count the basket if the travel occurs while in the act of shooting? Award two shots for the foul. These discussions are helpful..

Well you're wrong on the first play. This is a blocking foul and this is an easy call under NBA rules (and is pretty damn close under NFHS/NCAA rules). A defender must allow a player who receives a pass outside the lower defensive box the opportunity to land and stop and/or change direction. The defender in the above play did not do that thus, he did not have a legal position.

A player is allowed two steps after they've gathered the ball....not after they've established a pivot foot. The first step occurs after the player has gathered the ball and takes a step. So for example, a player gathers the ball with a left foot on the floor...step one occurs when he steps with the right foot...step two occurs when he steps with the left foot. In that case, the right foot is the pivot foot. And the first example, that would be a travel under NCAA/NFHS rules. Second example: Player gathers the ball with the left foot on the floor. Player steps with the right foot (step 1), then jumps off the right foot and lands simultaneously on both feet (considered step 2). This is a travel under NFHS/NCAA rules but a legal play under NBA rules (and the player wouldn't be able to pivot afterward). Third example...player gathers the ball with the left foot on the floor....he jumps off that left foot and lands on both feet simultaneously (considered step 1). Player is allowed to pivot here but wouldn't under NFHS/NCAA rules.

As to the second play, I have nothing at the beginning of the dribble. Player gathered the all with the left foot on the floor, steps with the right, the starts the dribble as the 2nd foot comes to the floor. I do have a travel at the end of the dribble though as I have the player gathering the ball in mid air, stepping with the right foot (step 1), stepping with the left foot (step 2), then stepping with the right again (step 3).

Haven't we discussed this extensively; with the conclusion being that you wave off the score and award two shots?

The ball does not become dead on the foul if it's by the defense and the shooting motion has begun. It does, however, become dead when the offense commits a violation. Thus no basket, but two shots.

No such rule in NFHS
 

In NFHS there is no rule specific to the lower defensive block. Also Wade wasn't in the air so there was no reason to give him a landing spot. He was running. A defender does not have to give a player any time or distance if the offensive player has the ball. Wade clearly was in possession. The defender had two feet on the floor with his torso facing Wade. Clearly he had LGP. PC in NFHS all the way.

I did not know this rule exists in the NBA. The area works the same as a player giving one step on a screen. Would this be the same on a rebound as a pass?

Under NFHS/NCAA I have a PC foul.

I never said it wasn't a charge under NF/NCAA rules...I just said it was close...especially since people here were applying NFHS/NCAA rules to that play and thinking it was an obvious charge even by their "NBE" standards. And I meant to say lower defensive box rather than block...got ahead of myself.

Let me just clarify one point real quick...I meant to say lower defensive box rather than block...got ahead of myself as to what the correct call was on this play.

To your question, need a little bit more information...where did the play occur? Describe more aptly what happened before contact.

defensive box meaning the defensive lane area?

One step on a blind screen but even a screen in the FOV requires the screener to give the defense an opportunity to stop &/or change directions.

The lower defensive box is an area in the frontcourt bound by the 3 foot marks on each side of the lane and the lower tip of the free throw circle. So in English haha:

There's a mark on the court, 3 feet outside each lane line. That's the outside edge of the lower defensive box. The top portion would be the lower part of the free throw circle (remember they have this because the NBA doesn't use the AP method).

The lower defensive box is important in determining whether the restricted area applies on a block/charge play and to whether a player has to afford a player who receives a pass an opportunity to stop and change direction.

Good to learn! Thanks.

My "NBE standards" applied to the travel clip, not to the B/C clip. Perhaps my punctuation was in error.

I think I got it, but just for the sake of easiness lets just say a defensive rebound occurs where the pass in the first play was made. Player turns takes a step and crashes into a player before the step was completed.

Not sure I remember or were directly involved in those discussions here, but there are discussions I have had about this issue previously. But in this discussion people seem to be intent on that there was a travel and did not seem to focus on the foul that might have affected any travel being called. That is the only reason I pointed that out.

Peace

No time or distance is required to be given to a dribbler when trying to get in a legal position. Strictly speaking, if the player got the ball on the run, then no time or distance is required to be given. If the player jumps to grab the ball, then a defensive player must allow airborne players outside the LDB to land and stop/change direction.

By rule, it seems pretty simple. Although in practice it won't always be that clear.

Jump shooter goes up, gets fouled, comes down, and releases his shot that goes in. Easy to give him two shots and discount the basket. Player on the floor gets pushed into a travel before he can release the shot, it's a little more complicated.

Not if he gathered the ball & we put a lil' verbal behind the whistle. IJS

By rule, it's a shooting foul but not basket. What are you "just sayin" you'd do? And how does air in the whistle help?

block (don't understand why there's so much discussion...pretty clear - block)
travel on reception and travel prior to shot.

vs.

Just sayin it wouldnt be complicated to award 2 shots here ^^ if we have good post-whistle fundamentals.

Never mentioned air in the whistle...

Got it. Thank you... I didn't even realize this was a rule in the NBA

As APG said, block in the NBA based on their rule of defensive box.

However, this is a PC foul under NCAA and NFHS. Player establishes LGP and moves laterally and backwards, taking the contact in the chest.
How is this a "pretty clear - block"?

This play is much more common than the one you just described. Actually I have never seen a situation where I had to rule on a foul shot based on the shooter already coming back to the floor an shooting the ball. The LeBron play is very common as to what is likely to be seen. I actually had to T up a coach over a discussion based on a similar play as he wanted to dispute how many steps the shooter took after clearly being fouled.

Peace

Joining the party late
 

First play I got a travel on Wade.

I don't know NBA rules, so I'm going Fed Rules, PC after the traveling violation.

Second play, viewing it in real time, he traveled initially. I didn't see much contact as he headed to the basket, so I would have no called the rest of the play. Wasn't positive he traveled at the end, again live viewing. Which means I'm not blowing my whistle for traveling, since I'm not positive. I definitely wouldn't have called a foul, since the contact if any was marginal.

I do not think the defender established LGP....this is coming from an official who calls more PC fouls than most (thanks to my: "a block is a block, a charge is a charge, and everything else in between is a charge" philosophy).

I would venture a guess that, when this play occurs in an actual game, 80-90% of officials would rule this a block.....

btw, can't see the travel that some are alleging took place. In other circumstances, too many officials rule a travel in situations like this to avoid having to call a block/charge......I think it is mainly because the don't know whether it's a block or charge - so they bail themselves out by calling a travel.

Yeah I think travels should be like 3 seconds, in regards to NOT making that be your best call.

These seem contradictory :p but not important


Looking again it is close, but he has LGP as Wade has his left foot on the ground while turning. I think it is a great defensive play and we reward him with a charge call.
I can't agree with this philosophy as I don't like guessing or making absolutes on plays we should be able to get. I have heard the saying "what did the defense do wrong?" I like that better as a teaching "saying" as it teaches to referee the defense. While we can still get plays wrong, I believe it helps to get more plays correct.

Watching it live, I had a PC foul, without regard to the NBA difference.

BTW, APG, if you could find it, I'd like to see the play where Kevin Love got hurt against the Nuggets.

Make every type of call your best call. ;)

True :)