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justacoach Thu Mar 22, 2012 08:09am
From one of our local pundits
 
NCAA tournament: Refs should adjust in games’ final minutes

I wouldn't want you all to get the wrong impression but I only read this digital rag to get sports scores and horse racing results.


And to think she has the chutzpah to opine about real sports, not just the wimmens!


http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/ncaa-tournament-refs-should-adjust-in-games-final-minutes/2012/03/21/gIQAYes9RS_story.html

Raymond Thu Mar 22, 2012 08:52am
See if this works: NCAA tournament: Refs should adjust in games’ final minutes - The Washington Post

Adam Thu Mar 22, 2012 09:41am
What they're really saying is basketball games should have different rules when the results matter.

Stupid journalists.

bainsey Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:19am
Stupid? I don't think so. Heavily flawed? Absolutely. And, the foundation lies in this myopic myth from the article...

Quote:
A point arrives when the penalty for an infraction has a greater impact on the final score than the infraction itself.
Here's are two realities of basketball I've come to learn:
*A game is never decided by one play. It is always decided by the totality of the 32/40/48 minutes (plus overtime, if applicable). If one play decided a game, you wouldn't need the other minutes.

*Every single time there's a one-point game, without exception, it's inevitable that the officials have done something -- via action or inaction -- to affect the outcome. Way too much goes on within the game's time span not to be the case.

So, why do we buy into this myth? It really comes down to human memory capacity. We can only remember so much, and we just can't take in all 60-100 possessions. Therefore, when a controversial call happens in a game's closing minutes, it's still typically fresh in people's minds. However, if a call is kicked in the first half, people get mad for 5-10 seconds, but just move onto the next play.

In truth, the smaller the score's margin, the greater chance an official's rulings -- be they in the beginning, middle, or end of a game -- will affect that game's outcome. While those look at Notre Dame/Xavier, I guarantee you that there were rulings in other close games that affected that game just as much.

APG Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:25am
There's only one thing I agreed with in the article...

I wouldn't mind seeing a lane violation being ignored, for both teams, if the free throw is made. Realistically, there was no impact on the violation in the Xavier game. Now the call was correct, and since the violation was so clear and obvious, it had to be called...but I'd like a rule change to ignore if the free throw is made.

Rich Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 833611)
There's only one thing I agreed with in the article...

I wouldn't mind seeing a lane violation being ignored, for both teams, if the free throw is made. Realistically, there was no impact on the violation in the Xavier game. Now the call was correct, and since the violation was so clear and obvious, it had to be called...but I'd like a rule change to ignore if the free throw is made.
I agree, with the exception of a violation by the shooter.

APG Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GROUPthink (Post 833612)
I agree, with the exception of a violation by the shooter.
If the free throw shooter entered in early after releasing the ball, I wouldn't have an issue there either if he makes the free throw.

Things like faking a throw and actually shooting the ball on the line, I'd say enforce when violated.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach (Post 833593)
NCAA tournament: Refs should adjust in games’ final minutes

I wouldn't want you all to get the wrong impression but I only read this digital rag to get sports scores and horse racing results.


And to think she has the chutzpah to opine about real sports, not just the wimmens!


http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/ncaa-tournament-refs-should-adjust-in-games-final-minutes/2012/03/21/gIQAYes9RS_story.html


Come on Coach, we really know you read it only for the horse racing results, ;).

MTD, Sr.

truerookie Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 833611)
There's only one thing I agreed with in the article...

I wouldn't mind seeing a lane violation being ignored, for both teams, if the free throw is made. Realistically, there was no impact on the violation in the Xavier game. Now the call was correct, and since the violation was so clear and obvious, it had to be called...but I'd like a rule change to ignore if the free throw is made.
I don't agree with that concept. The rule should stay as written if the offense violates first. It wouldn't matter if the defense violates thats what the delayed signal is for.

berserkBBK Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie (Post 833618)
Is that not the case with the delay signal? Or am I missing the point?
Only for defensive lane violations. Offensive should, by rule, called immediately when the player commits the violation.

APG Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie (Post 833618)
I don't agree with that concept. The rule should stay as written if the offense violates first. It wouldn't matter if the defense violates thats what the delayed signal is for.
Why? What advantage did the Xavier kid gain by entering in early on a made free throw?

truerookie Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 833622)
Why? What advantage did the Xavier kid gain by entering in early on a made free throw?
It doesn't matter he left before the release from the shooter. He should been disciplined enough not to do that. It may have been a delay on the official behalf to process and make the call but it was the right call.

There is an requirement for the defense make or miss the same must apply for the offense as well.

bainsey Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 833622)
Why? What advantage did the Xavier kid gain by entering in early on a made free throw?
There may be unintended consequences, such as more players crashing the boards early, taking a risk they won't get caught, and knowing they wouldn't be penalized, anyway, if the shot it good. The point of the rule is to prevent such early crashes.

jTheUmp Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach (Post 833593)
And to think she has the chutzpah to opine about real sports, not just the wimmens!
:rolleyes:
Is that comment really necessary?

APG Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie (Post 833625)
It doesn't matter he left before the release from the shooter. He should been disciplined enough not to do that. It may have been a delay on the official behalf to process and make the call but it was the right call.

There is an requirement for the defense make or miss the same must apply for the offense as well.
I'm not talking bout that actual ruling in the Xavier game and whether it should have or not been called. It was a clear and obvious violation and had to be called. Doesn't mean I don't think the rule is stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 833626)
There may be unintended consequences, such as more players crashing the boards early, taking a risk they won't get caught, and knowing they wouldn't be penalized, anyway, if the shot it good. The point of the rule is to prevent such early crashes.
Then call the foul. Even then, I doubt it would lead to what you propose.

As is, someone mentioned in another thread that the FIBA rule for free throws is the same as what I propose. They don't seem to have an issue with it.

berserkBBK Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 833626)
There may be unintended consequences, such as more players crashing the boards early, taking a risk they won't get caught, and knowing they wouldn't be penalized, anyway, if the shot it good. The point of the rule is to prevent such early crashes.
I believe the point of the rule is for the player not to gain a rebounding advantage. While I don't mind either way, I do hate when players, coaches, and/or fans yell that the defense left early, and I'm sitting in the middle of the court with a fist out to the side. Maybe if there is consistency between defense and offense violations we won't hear the grumbles. Most likely we will still hear it, and probably more since we won't be blowing our whistle immediately on half of them.

Zeebra Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 833611)
There's only one thing I agreed with in the article...

I wouldn't mind seeing a lane violation being ignored, for both teams, if the free throw is made. Realistically, there was no impact on the violation in the Xavier game. Now the call was correct, and since the violation was so clear and obvious, it had to be called...but I'd like a rule change to ignore if the free throw is made.
This is exactly how it is played under the FIBA rule set. The only person who can violate on a MADE FT is the shooter. All other violations are ignored if the FT is good.

JugglingReferee Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer (Post 833611)
There's only one thing I agreed with in the article...

I wouldn't mind seeing a lane violation being ignored, for both teams, if the free throw is made. Realistically, there was no impact on the violation in the Xavier game. Now the call was correct, and since the violation was so clear and obvious, it had to be called...but I'd like a rule change to ignore if the free throw is made.
.... the FIBA rule!

justacoach Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:10pm
And to think she has the chutzpah to opine about real sports, not just the wimmens!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp (Post 833635)
:rolleyes:
Is that comment really necessary?
Just channelling my inner Jurassic...
Don't you miss him?

Andy Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 833606)
Stupid? I don't think so. Heavily flawed? Absolutely. And, the foundation lies in this myopic myth from the article...



Here's are two realities of basketball I've come to learn:
*A game is never decided by one play. It is always decided by the totality of the 32/40/48 minutes (plus overtime, if applicable). If one play decided a game, you wouldn't need the other minutes.

*Every single time there's a one-point game, without exception, it's inevitable that the officials have done something -- via action or inaction -- to affect the outcome. Way too much goes on within the game's time span not to be the case.

So, why do we buy into this myth? It really comes down to human memory capacity. We can only remember so much, and we just can't take in all 60-100 possessions. Therefore, when a controversial call happens in a game's closing minutes, it's still typically fresh in people's minds. However, if a call is kicked in the first half, people get mad for 5-10 seconds, but just move onto the next play.

In truth, the smaller the score's margin, the greater chance an official's rulings -- be they in the beginning, middle, or end of a game -- will affect that game's outcome. While those look at Notre Dame/Xavier, I guarantee you that there were rulings in other close games that affected that game just as much.
I could also argue that a missed three-point shot with 7 minutes left in the first half doesn't have as much affect on the fnal score than a missed three-point shot with 1 second left in the game with a team down by two points.....

Why is it always about the referees and what they do or don't do over this course of the game and not the players?!?!?

What fans fail to realize is that we as officials are not making stuff up, we are responding to the players actions to offciate the game.

tref Thu Mar 22, 2012 01:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy (Post 833651)
Why is it always about the referees and what they do or don't do over this course of the game and not the players?!?!?
It's simply easier to blame us, than count the number of missed layups, FTs & the turnovers.

Toren Thu Mar 22, 2012 02:21pm
Here's the thing
 
I have heard many officials say in pregames or half time that they call the same fouls in the last minute as they do any other point in the game.

THEN we hit the court and they choke on the whistle for things that they have called all game long.

Now I would like to think that a foul is a foul regardless of the time on the clock, but in practice that hasn't been my experience. I try to officiate a consistent game throughout the game, but it's a struggle sometimes and I can admit that. Some of that is due to my inexperience, I'm sure.

icallfouls Thu Mar 22, 2012 02:51pm
"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." :D

rockyroad Thu Mar 22, 2012 02:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls (Post 833668)
"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." :D
Billy Madison quotes!! Awesome...

Mark Padgett Thu Mar 22, 2012 03:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach (Post 833593)
And to think she has the chutzpah to opine about real sports, not just the wimmens!
OY! Someone used "chutzpah" in a post! I might just plotz! :)

icallfouls Thu Mar 22, 2012 03:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 833671)
OY! "chutzpah"
gesundheit

justacoach Thu Mar 22, 2012 03:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 833671)
OY! Someone used "chutzpah" in a post! I might just plotz! :)
I originally used 'cojones' but spell-check suggested this.

Better that zaftige chazzer Charles Barkley should plotz..

Raymond Thu Mar 22, 2012 03:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by icallfouls (Post 833668)
"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 833670)
Billy Madison quotes!! Awesome...
Always wondered what movie that was from. One of the local radio sports personalities used to have that as part of his introductary drop.

Raymond Thu Mar 22, 2012 03:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toren (Post 833662)
...THEN we hit the court and they choke on the whistle for things that they have called all game long.
...
When I got into officiating I think this was prevalent. At think now at the NCAA-M's level John Adams wants the same fouls called from beginning to end.

But then you go to camps and you hear staff observors/evaluators from the D1 ranks talk about "high certainty" and "quality" fouls in end of game situations.

BillyMac Thu Mar 22, 2012 05:06pm
Who You Gonna Call ???
 
From the list:

Officials are on the court to be the only unbiased arbiters of the game. Officials are not concerned with who wins or loses, but only fairness and safety. Everyone else in that gym cares about winning, and therefore cannot look at the game objectively. Players commit fouls and violations; officials view those infractions, judge the action, and then apply the rules of the game to what they had viewed. The rules then determine the penalty.


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