Jump ball question

[Mark Padgett]

Girls HS JV level summer league. I toss the opening jump. A1 taps the ball with one hand. B1 taps the ball with one hand. A1 then hits the ball with both hands simultaneously. The ball then hits the floor and then it is grabbed by A1. My partner blows his whistle.

I thought he was going to call a violation on A1 for catching the ball and I was ready to remind him that it was OK since the ball hit the floor first.

But NO! He said that the second tapping of the ball by A1 counted as two taps since she hit it with both hands. He didn't mean she hit it separately, but that the simultaneous tapping counted as two.

I didn't feel like arguing, since I never had this before. The only rule reference I can find is in the definition of a "tap" which says a tap can be with the hand(s), although that is talking about a tap for goal.

This partner is a very experienced varsity level official and is also an evaluator, so I figured that even though he might be wrong, he had such court presence that I didn't make an issue of it.

Any thoughts?

[Tim Roden]

First of all in your situation, I would discretely as possible say, I don't think that is what the rule book says but I'll take your word for it and leave your call stand. We'll look it up at half time. Most evaluators love looking up rules to verify what they say is correct.

Second, The rule book does say TOUCH the ball more than twice not TAP. So each hand would count as once in my opinion. So the evaluator is right. Give the ball to B.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Tim Roden
Second, The rule book does say TOUCH the ball more than twice not TAP. So each hand would count as once in my opinion. So the evaluator is right. Give the ball to B.

There's a specific FED ruling that touching the ball simultaneously with both hands only counts as one touch.

It's either in the case book or was a supplemental interp.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

There's a specific FED ruling that touching the ball simultaneously with both hands only counts as one touch.

It's either in the case book or was a supplemental interp.

Mr. Jenkins be 100% right. Casebook play 6.4.7(a)--"simultaneous touching counts as one...". Mark,your partner was full of doo-doo.

[Tim Roden]

Good call. 6-4-7a in the case book says touching with both hands counts as one touch.

[Mark Padgett]

Juulie - schedule me with this guy again so I can tell him he's wrong.

You know how I hate to do that.

[Camron Rust]

Unfortunately, too many generally very good officials don't know the rules very well.

I've had more then one tournament level official botch the jumpball.

I've had more than one call it and insist that the jumper can not catch the ball until after a non-jumper has touched it...even if it hits the floor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Unfortunately, too many generally very good officials don't know the rules very well.

I've had more then one tournament level official botch the jumpball.

I wonder if part of the problem on this particular call is that you generally get one jump ball per game now(barring OT),and most officials gloss over that section of the rule book when(and if) they study.Before the AP came in,there would always be several questions on the exam on jump ball administration,and there were more examples in the casebook,too.Naturally,there's not too much emphasis placed on actual jump balls anymore.

[theboys]

All right, I'll bite. I don't have a rule book with me, so I gots to know. What's the tip rule?

I know the tip can't be caught by either one of the people involved in the tip. BUT, it seems like I read that the tip can be caught by one of the people involved in the tip if its tipped two or more times. That sounds crazy. Is it?

BTW, 9th grade game last year. Kid on the opposing team catches the tip. Ref calls a violation, but gives the opposing team the AP. After the game, I tell my kid we should've gotten the AP, as well. NEXT game, same thing happens. My kid's bringing the ball in, and I see him talking to the ref. Afterwards I asked him if he was talking about the AP. He said, "yeah, I told the ref what you said, but he said I was wrong." So much for rules knowledge being an advantage.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by theboys
BTW, 9th grade game last year. Kid on the opposing team catches the tip. Ref calls a violation, but gives the opposing team the AP. After the game, I tell my kid we should've gotten the AP, as well. NEXT game, same thing happens. My kid's bringing the ball in, and I see him talking to the ref. Afterwards I asked him if he was talking about the AP. He said, "yeah, I told the ref what you said, but he said I was wrong." So much for rules knowledge being an advantage.

If my memory serves correct, it sounds to me like the official got that one right. If a team violates on the opening tip, the opposing team gets the ball and the arrow. I'm sure some of the current officials can give you a correct ruling on this. I'm going from my memory of the rules from 2 years ago.

[theboys]

Hey, mike. I probably didn't write very clearly - B1 violated by catching the tip. A got the ball on the violation, but B got the AP arrow.

From what you said, and from what I thought, A should've gotten the ball and the arrow.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by mikesears

If my memory serves correct, it sounds to me like the official got that one right. If a team violates on the opening tip, the opposing team gets the ball and the arrow. I'm sure some of the current officials can give you a correct ruling on this. I'm going from my memory of the rules from 2 years ago.

No. The only time a team got the ball and the arrow was if one of the jumpers caught the ball before the restrictions ended. This rule was changed last year, so the other team gets the ball OOB, but not the arrow also. So now, the rule is the same for all violations on the jump.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by theboys
Hey, mike. I probably didn't write very clearly - B1 violated by catching the tip. A got the ball on the violation, but B got the AP arrow.

From what you said, and from what I thought, A should've gotten the ball and the arrow.

You would have been correct until a year ago. It's now that whoever violates gets the arrow, since getting the ball OOB is considered the first "possession" for the purposes of setting the arrow.

[theboys]

Thanks for the clarification everyone. I'm glad the rule was changed. Its fairer the new way.