ND vs Temple
 

Great calls at end of game. Free throw violation on the front end of one and one. Then the intentional foul on throw-in.

That official was on fire at the end of the game. He nailed them all!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XUhNSI6XRw0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/syIOhoM3ohU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

As a player I HATE the ft violation call.

Saw on Twitter Barkley was going off? Anyone catch it?

I just kicked the 'round mound of rebound' off the pedestal on which I had him esconced for many years. He puts the typical rec league coach to shame with his ridiculous tirade on national CBS broadcast.

Duffman:

And what other violations do you not like: illegal dribble, traveling, basket interference, goaltending, to name a few?

MTD, Sr.

He also "nailed it" on the FG attempt that broke the backboard plane!

I hate violations that are called tha have little if any advantage/disadvantage.

That said I'm in a bar amd the telecast focused on the players in marked spaces opposite of camera. I've since seen a replay and agree with the call on the player outside the arc entering early.

I'll answer that.

I don't like FT violations on MADE free throws. With the exception of the shooter, I don't think either team should be penalized. No advantage is gained when the ball goes in the basket. Why penalize the offense on a made FT, just because someone steps in?

It's a bad rule.

Duffman:

If you do your due diligence in learning the history of the rules of basketball and the Oswald Tower Philosophy, you will learn the advantage-disadvantage applies to fouls but not to violations.

MTD, Sr.

What page in the rule book is the Tower Philosophy explained?????

Odd, as ive seen many quality officials talk players out of three second violations, and minor hand fighting Free throw violations, and players running intentionally oob violations in which no advantage was gained.

I kinda understand where you are coming from here especially in situations in which the violation doesn't disconcert the shooter, but at the same time, if it's a violation if team B does it when team A misses a FT, but it's NOT a violation on team A when team A does it and team A makes a FT, then you are essentially penalizing team B.

You realized that the "minor hand fighting Free throw violations" are not violations don't you? You can call a foul or not, but there is no violation to be called.

And talking a player out of committing a violation is different than ignore a violation that has already occurred.

Cameron, I'm referring to the hand fighting going on between two players in marked spaces while the shooter holds the ball.

And I'd accept what you are saying in the event you can tell me honestly that you've never passed on a 3 second violation when a player has a toe in the lane opposite of where the ball is and isn't using his/her position in the lane to gain an advantage, but I doubt you'd be able to do that.

The problem is inconsistency. Somebody was complaining in another thread yesterday, I think, about this exact violation not being called. If that is the case with this call, (it's simply not called at this level) like the Austin Rivers traveling videos we recently watched, and now it is called in an extreme situation such as this, I'm with Barkley, that sucks.

Has anyone by any chance reviewed more of the video of this game? Did this guy step in on other free throws without a call?

A fair point.

I believe both violations (yesterday and tonight) were the result of players coming in from outside the 3-point arc, not simply toe-touching within the lane. In the Syracuse game yesterday, the announcers initially focused on players in the lane from a bird's-eye view and how "close" it was, but it wasn't until after the game we saw the actual violation was the player coming in from outside the arc and almost to the block by the time the ball hit the rim. I believe it was the same essential call tonight.

What sucks is the player let his "NBA instincts" take over at that point in the game and he forgot the rule. What also sucks is letting NBA announcers use their NBA training to bash the NCAA officials without really knowing what they're talking about.

So am I. What kind of violation do you think they have committed?

Someone DOES read my posts :D

It States, "Rule", Not, "Foul" ...
 

Ten seconds on a free throw? Three seconds in the lane?

It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may
be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be
permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be
permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not
intended by a rule.

We've been down this road before. I think that it's best if we all agree to disagree, and just follow the, "When in Rome ...", philosophy:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post830816

Like Camron, I'd love to see a rule reference to know what violation these players are committing in your "hand fighting" scenario.

You cannot possibly be comparing the player running from the arc to the block to the big guy with a toe on the FT line.

If someone can show me video of other plays where this player entered from the arc, that early, without a call. Then I'll buy the consistency argument. Otherwise, it's just as much of a load of crap as when I hear it from MS coaches.

A few other things to remember:

1. The calls were obvious.
2. If you want to argue the whole advantage/disadvantage aspect, the kid who violated in the UNCA/Syracuse game also happened to be the one who ended up rebounding the missed free throw. If that's not an advantage then I don't know what is.

I feel the same way Snagwells does on this one: find a play where a kid was 3-4 steps inside the 3-point arc before the ball hit the rim/backboard and it wasn't called and I'll say you have a good point. But on back-to-back days we saw the same situation and it was called the same way.

CBSSports channel will replay a bunch of the games. I saw the UNCA game and darn if the same player didn't break the arc AGAIN on the 2nd free throw.
I'm not saying the call was wrong. Even if you are using the advantage/disadvantage the player DID get the rebound. These plays will probably be on a Preventative Officiating portion of next years NCAA video

And how would they suggest the officials prevent it? Should officials remind those not on the lane that they can't enter until the ball hits? Do they need to remind them before every FT? Or just in the last minute? Or only in the tournament?

No. This one's on the players for not knowing the rules and on the coaches for not teaching them the rules.

The only reason I brought this up is because it had just been mentioned the day before. I have never noticed this violation in an NCAA game, called or not.
I was asking the question, is this one that is not called?

Around here, at the high school level, entering early is almost never called. I've kinda adopted the "when in Rome" attitude and backed off the call myself.

I'm not comparing them, Im responding to the thought that advantage/disadvantage was not a factor for violations.

That may be, but one of the things you mention is not even a violation, ever.....and brings into question your knowledge of the rules which makes it hard to discuss philosophy of how they should be called.

And A/D is not a factor for violations...it is understanding the purpose of the rule and knowing when to apply it.

The official making these calls was Mike Stuart...lets see since he made these late game calls..that he is rewarded by moving deep into the rest of tourney

Sarcasm? Or confession?

Surprised no one has pointed out that it was xavier v. Norte Dame...rather than Temple lol

But not too hard to argue with evidently... It's called a you can't do that violation and is prevalent in youth and hs girls games. It's preceded by the both of you knock it off mechanic.

Remind me of my lack of rules knowledge as I blow through HS ball and start working d3 college stuff and beyond...

Its what I call: Playing paddy cake. LOL It is prevalent it girls' games at the H.S. level and below and I tell them to knock it off.

MTD, Sr.

Why can't you do that? Show me a rule that says anything close to it being a violation. You might tell them to knock it off, but still, it is not a violation and never has been.

You just might blow throw HS ball but it will evidently not be due to your command of the rules. Someday, you'll get run into someone that knows better when you try to make something up and you'll try to puff your chest to to cover if it up and they'll call you on it.

The first time you see it, address it. Don't let a player continue to violate and wait till there is an 'advantage' gained before you blow the whistle. Either remind them early on when you see it, I.e. warn them, or blow your whistle for the violation the first time.
IMO, the officials were letting it go because there had not been an advantage gained, and it came back to bite them in the butt.

Were they coming in from the arc all game?

They were quite a few times. Like I said on the second FT after the called violation they did it again. I think it was even the same player, but not certain.

You know why they don't do it at higher levels? Because a) they knocked it off when told to, or b) didn't and got called for it once in jr high. Regardless I'm not worried, I'm not arrogant, and I rarely work without two partners who are always helpful.on rules knowledge.

Disclaimer: I'm a baseball guy.

Can somebody please clarify the rule for me. Is it the player behind the arc cannot cross the arc before the ball hits the rim, or is it that the player behind the arc cannot cross the free throw line before the ball hits the rim?

If it is the arc then it is a very clear violation. If it is the free throw line, then it is pretty close. He appears to have one foot down, just over the free throw line when the ball hits the rim, not "near the block" as somebody mentioned earlier.

He may not enter until the ball hits the rim, flange, or backboard.

NCAA Rule Book (2011-2012)
Rule 9, Section 1
Art. 2. After the ball is placed at the disposal of a free-thrower:

g. Players not in a legal marked lane space shall remain behind the free throw line extended and behind the three-point field-goal line until the ball strikes the ring, flange or backboard, or until the free throw ends.

They dont do it at higher levels because its stupid and hurts the player doing it.

For the second part...I work with a few guys that on occasion that depend on me knowing the rules and I want to slap them silly for it. I HATE having to conduct rules clinics at halftime/end of game with my partners because they dont study enough.

The point remains....what justification do you have for telling them to not do that? What rule are they violating or close to violating?

Huh??? :confused:

They are violating the I told you to stop that rule.

GG

Is that a statement of fact or a statement of speculation? Need to know before I answer.

That bolded statement is directly contradicted by the previous post I quoted above this one. And don't try to sell me a load of crap that you are "different" in real life. :rolleyes:

In college ball how long do you think your partners are going tolerate your lack of rules knowledge? On the contrary, the "rookies" are expected to be the rules expert on the crew.

I am going to cringe for what I am about to write after I hit the "Submit Reply" button, BUT:

Listen up whippersnapper, I have forgotten more about the rules and mechanics of basketball and still know more that you do! Before you can begin to become a good official on the court, you had damn well better know the rules, casebook, and mechanics backwards, forwards, and inside out. Officials with you arrogant attitude are not needed in our profession. When you have come close to accomplishing what I have done in my 41 years of officiating, or some of my freinds both in this forum, or my personal friends across the country, then just maybe yoiu can start to cop an attitude with some of on this forum. My advice to you is keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut.

This is no way to start a Sunday morning.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. If MTD, Jr., started mouthing off like you just did, I would have knocked him into the middle of next season.

Here, here!!
 

As the father of 3 officials below the age of 22, I strongly concur with this statement.
Duffman, come hang around my crew for a while and get a strong lesson in competency, rules savvy, respectfulness, and, most importantly, humility. I'll pay for your ticket...

No, they don't do it because it's pointless. And while I might tell them to stop, there's no violation to call. Usually, a quick "knock it off" works. If that doesn't, and you think the contact rises to the level of a foul, you could call a double foul. You can also stand there and stare at them til the stop. You might be able to get away with making some sort of "you can't do that" call in a Jr. High game, but if you tried doing that in a high school game around here you'd be stuck working freshman girls until you figured out it's a good idea to know the rules.

In your area, with two partners who can help you with the rules, you can probably do pretty well. But that's nothing to brag about, to be honest. It's a sad indictment of the state of officiating in your area.

In most places, you have to be able to hold your own with the rules, or you won't be working varsity games.

And if they don't, what is the penalty that you are going to impose? And how is your assignor going to justify it when the coach sends them a tape?

And for the record, it's not your misunderstanding of the rules that's drawing the ire here. It's the fact that you don't seem to care, and still try to justify the "you can't do that because I said so" rule.

Lol why would I try and call that in a HS game? That's just stupid.

I don't know why, you were the one calling it.

Yes Dad
 

Hey, Dad. Don't forget me. I promise to be super, super silent.
Yes Dad. Yes Dad. Yes Dad. :) :D

L3:
If you can be as big a doofus as Duffman I'll let you play along!!!

It is an easy call, and not at all close for a non-newbie official.

And why are you the weak link when it comes to rules knowlege. If you want to make it to Div. I or the NBA/WNBA you had better know the rules and casebook play and not hope your partners know the rules.

MTD, Sr.

So the rule is that the player behind the arc cannot cross the arc before the ball hits the rim.....right?

The players not along the lane must be behind the 3 point arc and the FT line extended. The restriction does not end until the ball hits the rim or backboard

Or flange or...the free throw ends.

I'll just have to sit this one out. :(

Again here is the deal guys. I'm probably the least arrogant official any of you have ever known. I'm not territorial, I realize I don't know everything (yet) and am not afraid to lean on my veteran partners when need be, and I only truly care about getting it right. Further I'm everything that’s RIGHT about the future of officiating. I'm young enough to understand what players want from officials, I've coached enough to understand what coaches want from officials, and I'm far enough removed from playing and coaching (as well as mature enough) to realize what players and coaches want isn't always what they need (or what has to be done) from officials.

I used the example of the “hand fighting” violation for a reason. It was posted that A/D is a factor for fouls only and not violations (whether you call it A/D or enforcing the intent of the rule is merely semantics) and I disagree with that. To demonstrate I posted an example of a violation that occurs that we frequently ignore (a post person opposite of the ball with a toe on the lane stripe for 3+ seconds) and an example of something that isn’t really a violation at all that can be called one in the right circumstance.

Show me where in the rule book it prohibits a defensive player from screaming or counting to five loudly and quickly in the face of a player attempting to inbound the ball. Then show me an official who wouldn’t put a stop to that despite not having the justification to do so (spare me the unsportsmanlike T as that only applies to baiting and taunting).

Instead of discussing the matter or even attempting to figure out what I meant or where I was coming from some of you guys held a contest to see who’s rules-penis was bigger (which BTW is a fairly common occurrence around here). My response that it was a violation of the "I told you to knock that off" rule was not arrogant, or emotional at all reallly. It was merely a factual answer to a direct question.

Regardless I don’t think there is much I can accomplish by hanging out here. The little new information I’ve learned isn’t worth the time it takes to sort through the dozen or so daily posts promising free movie downloads, and most of the conversations here turn into a bunch of old ladies arguing about who cheated in bridge last Thursday.

As for me I’ll be fine. I’ve gone from working youth and JV games only 3 years ago to working a full season of varsity including 4 tournament games (2 boys and 2 girls) this year. I’ve got a handful of JV college dates on my schedule for next year, as well as 2 dates from a local juco. I’ve been invited to attend two college officiating camps by the respective guy’s that run them and assign officials for the local D2 and NAIA conferences in my general area. That tells me I must be doing something right, so I’ll just keep on keeping on.

I don't really care what you and the others have been arguing about. I just want you to clarify this point. Because this statement by itself is not correct. There are plenty of ways a player can earn a T for unsporting behavior that is neither baiting or taunting.

This is why you need to know the rules better.

As for the rest, it's up to you. Stay, go away, just don't be so dramatic about it.

That is about the most arrogant statement I think a person could make.:eek:
Exxagerate much? Dozen "daily" posts....that has happened maybe twice in a few months that I've seen.

You're just looking for excuses to say you're better than the rest...really another arrogant line.
And you've got a BUNCH of people here who have done things right and have done many of those games and more. Your loss if you think you've got nothing to learn from the people here. You may not know who they are, but many of the posters are quite accomplished.

The enemy of getting better is exactly your attitude. Shut people out that challenge you just because you've had a little success.


Your kind has come and gone and will keep passing through. We will not miss you.

The FIBA rule is exactly like this and I like it alot. If the ball goes in we ignore the vioaltions unless it's the FT shooter.

Duffman:

I just now saw and read this post. From the date of your post, it is obvious that I think you started celebrating St. Paddy's day a little early and it must have clouded your judgement. ROFLMAO!! :p

MTD, Sr.

Here's the deal: A/D is, essentially, written into the rules for fouls in the incidental contact rule. It is not written into the rules for violations. It is, however, considered on some violations, by practice. 3 seconds, as you note, is done this way. Palming is another one that is done that way, although not to the same degree, as is the 10 second FT violation.

I've said it before, but I generally look for one of two criteria before calling these violations. Advantage, or egregious.

No, it does not only apply to baiting and taunting. Baiting and taunting is only one of nine articles in 10-3-6 (Commit an unsporting foul....) And even if it did, you could consider this act (screaming in the face of an opponent) taunting or baiting. But the counting is easily included in 10-3-6a, "disrespectfully addressing an official." If the yelling isn't directed at the official, then it's certainly baiting or taunting the opponent.

Aside from that, using the "but not limited to" portion of the rule applies to unsporting technical fouls, not violations. Our point is that you are really stretching the violation rule to apply it to the Free Throw Lane hand jive.

If you're going to use that rule, you only have the option of a technical foul.

Go or stay, that's up to you. I had initially thought to step in for your defense before you made the crack about blowing through high school ball and being able to count on your partners to help you through your lack of rules knowledge. Until this thread, you had expressed a willingness to learn the rules, particularly the technical foul rules for which you displayed a lack of awareness.

Here, however, you inexplicably dug in your heels. When challenged by the actual rule, your response is to deny arrogance and accuse the guys who know the rule of having some sort of pi$$ing contest. If that's your intent, you won't be missed.

+1 - from beginning to end.

(And I agree with the earlier statement that "I'm everything that's right about the future of officiating" being just about the most arrogant thing I've read in months.)

I'm going to disagree with some of you other guys and say that THIS is the most arrogant thing I have read on this forum in a long time. This person has been a member of the forum for roughly 6 weeks but now is leaving because he/she can't fix all of us or mold all of us into the perfection that he/she exemplifies.

"Can't accomplish much"??? Most of us come here to learn from each other...

Or it just means you have money in your checking account. ;)

I know guys who got picked up in NCAA D3 conferences after just 1 year of officiating. :cool:

If you can't handle internet discussions without being a drama queen good luck handling coaches who know the rules and are jumping in your a$$ before one of your partners runs over to be your support system. :rolleyes:

How long before a partner at that level throws him under the bus with the assigner for getting the crew into a tight spot by making stuff up?

At that level the assignor gets a phone call from the HC and/or neutral observor while the crew is still showering. And don't let the supervisor be watching the game over the internet.

You got that right. One of my D-3 assignors says if there's trouble the crew may not even make it to the locker room before there's a phone call.

And God forbid he need rules help during the tryout camps.

Help ???
 

Where's Jurassic Referee when you need him? If he was around, I'd be popping the popcorn right about now.